ISLAH BAHRAWI, DARI PENJARA KE RADIKALISME: KITA TIDAK PERNAH PUNYA SEJARAH GEMILANG POLITIK ISLAM

Well, Indonesia shouldn't be divided by that. Including this tadpole, it's a legacy of the politicization of religion, right, bro? I admit that I was once imprisoned. Oh, I was once imprisoned, bro. 22 months because of this issue with my brother, and I'm sure you also have a new idol in the world or an understanding of how radicalism works in our country, how it works, its history, and so on and so

forth. I chose to use that opening because honestly, I admire my friend, Islah Bahrawi. Good afternoon, good evening to those watching this show because it doesn't recognize the time, right? Thank you, bro. He refused to be called Gus. He wanted to call me by the nickname he's familiar with in South Sulawesi. Dayeng or puang. No. I still call him Gus Islam. Bro, many people ask, "Who are you?" suddenly, and honestly, I uh, you

suddenly appear with a narrative that uh, is very militant, with an understanding and even literacy that I think is complete, and it seems like your social circle is quite distant. You go on vacation quite far away, right? Many people ask, "Who are you?" please explain to us. Hmm, thank you, brother. So I did live in America for many years . I was like most Indonesians before I went there, I was a village boy. I was

born and raised in Madura. Where? In this place in Madura. In Bangkalan. Oh, Bangkalan. I went to high school in Madura. I also studied in Madura. I studied at the Sikhona Kholil Islamic Boarding School. Oh, Syikhana Kholil was the teacher of Mbah Hasyim Asari. My grandfather was also the last student at that Islamic boarding school with Kiai Asad Samsul

Arifin Sukorejo. This is the last generation of students from ee Syekh Nawalil. I studied there and am already his great-grandson. My teacher is now the great-grandson of K. H. Abdullah ee Syikhana Khil bin Abdul Latif. Well, after that, I was also exposed to the teachings of the extreme right because I read Syid Kutub's books. Yes. Wait, let's not go too far ahead. Many people have asked that before, right? So, I was born in Madura, then I

studied in Bangkalan at a very, very famous Islamic boarding school. Then where did you go to college? I studied at the National University of Jakarta, Faculty of Letters, English Department. Unas Unas UNAS Jakarta, Faculty of Letters, English Department in 1989. 1989. Okay. Then after that, after that, I went to America

as a student visa at the time. But because my intention was to work, because frankly, I came from a family with a tight financial situation. Okay. Then I went to America on that student visa. But actually, I was stuck there for a while while I was looking for a school because I didn't have the money. Okay. So, finally, I discovered life there. How to live a pluralistic life. The

church helped me a lot to live. There was the Sin Patrik church. Then I was adrift and was taken in by the YMC. Oh. So I received a lot of help from multi-faith, interfaith groups with a humanitarian foundation. Well, from there, I began to learn that, oh, apparently, this world isn't just limited to my faith in America. Where? In America, I was first in Virginia, then I moved to New York.

For months I was homeless there, and then I moved to California. To California, looking for a place that didn't have snow. Because I couldn't stand it. Yeah. I ended up moving to San Francisco. Finally, I was in Berkley. Well, there I was...Yeah. I had the chance to study Islamic history and philosophy. At that time, there was a newly established school called Zaituna

. I enrolled there. And coincidentally, because these newly established schools usually...what are they called? The requirements aren't too strict, not too strict. I chose that because I hadn't actually gone to school yet. Before my visa expired, I had to go to school to be able to extend my student visa and thank God I was able to do that. After that, I worked while studying because I had to think about my family

here too. I had to send money here. Family in the sense of the nuclear family or my wife already had a wife. Sir. Oh, okay. At that time, I...Yes, I left in 1999. I had a baby. Hm. Well, there I had to support my family. I had to work there to support myself and my school fees. That's why I worked there 24 hours a day, I only slept 3 hours a day outside of that activity. I

only had 3 hours of rest, and I did that for years. What kind of work? As a newspaper boy, a dishwasher, a dish washer, and also worked at Nah, this is what then changed my life a little. I worked at a bookstore called Bans and Nobel in downtown Berkley, and coincidentally, my job was to serve customers who asked, "What book is this ?" So every week I was burdened with books to read and to serve customers, "

What book is this?" So automatically, every week I was given the burden of reading as many books as possible so I could tell the customers who asked. Well, that's the habit I do to this day . I read an average of 1,000 pages per month, 250 pages per week. And that's become my habit until now. I don't know if this is a bad habit or a good habit, but what's clear is that it finally became my habit of reading books. Okay. In Berkeley, I returned to

Indonesia at the end of 2004. Okay. Yes, almost 5 years I was in America. In America, yes. And in a position of completing my studies. I didn't finish because I couldn't do it simultaneously between work and school. Well, especially after that, ee Zaituna finally converted into a college, formerly an institute. Finally, I decided, "Ah, never mind, the important

thing is that I have time to learn about the various histories of Islam there." Because ee Zaituna is a Sunni-based Islamic school founded by Hamzah Yusuf there in ee Berkeley, yes, in Berkley. And Hamzah Yusuf was a student of Ibn Bayyah from Mauritania. So, in my opinion, he is indeed a member of Ahlusunah wal Jamaah, even though his knowledge is interdisciplinary, he has thoughts. He

returned to Jakarta in 2004. I want to detail this so people can trace who a Muslim is. Yes, it's important because so far, what we see in various shows, both on conventional TV and on YouTube platforms like this, you go straight to the substance. Many people ask, "Bro, can you please ask me who he is?" Right? I returned to Jakarta, to Indonesia in 2004. In 2004, I worked with my cousin, ee, as a

partner in a foreign company, Oilfield Service, ee, a French company. I worked there managing the company with my cousin. In addition, I also worked as an environmental consultant at ee Coca-Cola Amatil in Cibitung. I did that. Yes. The last CCA, then in 2015, I resigned. But this is what I have to give you an idea of, because I admit that I was once in prison. Oh,

I was in prison, bro, for 22 months, because of a problem with this brother of mine who was initially a business partner. A business partner. Okay. Uh, then, uh, there was a conflict in the company, which I then reported to the police. I was accused of fraud and embezzlement. But thank God, it wasn't proven. But I was proven to have abused my authority in my position

as director for personal gain or someone else's. E as a director. As a director. Director or main director? I'm the director. He's the main director. I also operate this. I make money in this company. Okay. What kind of business? Uh, it's not far from scrap metal, actually. Uh, it's the same as the Madurese business, right? Scrap metal means

scrap metal, but this is more professional, okay. So, in oil service companies, there are obsolete machines, uncertified ones, and so on. Well, this is usually used as scrap. Well, this is what I manage here in collaboration with this company , son. Do I need to mention the company ? Oh, it's okay. The company was called PT Slumberse

Slambers. Slumberger is written. Yes. Yes. Slambers. Company. There. From there I was imprisoned. Well, I was indeed bullied badly by the usual attackers—people who attacked me because they felt disturbed. Maybe they said, "I'm a fraud. I'm embezzling money." Yes, that's okay. But I said, " Open source is available in the Supreme Court. What was I thinking?" But it was more of a family conflict actually.

And the company then dissolved and finally dissolved because of this case and then the contract with Selam Berzi was finally terminated. It was terminated because I was indeed my frontier in the company's operations. How big was your company at that time? Let's say in terms of billing, maybe how much was it per year? According to my calculations, during the contract with Selam Bersih, the turnover was

approximately 170, approximately 137 billion. Not a small company, not bad. Yes, not bad. Made money at the time. But yes, it was revealed in court that I was paid Rp. 1 million a month with a turnover of that size. But that's not the issue. There were indeed several things I couldn't reveal until the judge finally ruled that the fraud and embezzlement were not proven. I simply

abused my authority to disburse money from the company for several needs that I could not be held responsible for. Yes. With that Rp. 1 million salary. Yes. Thank you for making that confession. Honestly, uh, for me personally, it's commendable that you made that confession in public like this. Thank you again. Thank you. Okay. Then you suddenly appeared with such a narrative. Since when did you think about starting to be

on the front lines against radicals and their friends? When I was working, I happened to go to Africa. I went to Africa and also to several countries in South Asia and several countries in the Middle East. I have had an interest in humanity and peace, and also radicalism , of course, since I was in America. When I was drinking at a coffee shop in America, suddenly several people stormed the coffee shop. It turns out there was a rumor at this coffee shop

that every cup was donated to Israeli movements at that time. And that meant a physical attack. Physical. Oh, okay. So the glass was broken. Then I asked these people, and eventually they were arrested. Some of their followers were the ones who stormed this coffee shop. The coffee shop was famous because it was owned by Jews, and the rumor at that time in America was circulating in

Union Square that this coffee shop donated a certain amount of each cup to the Zionist movement. Huh. After I asked, it turned out these people didn't understand. In my opinion , I had the view that this was radicalism at that time. Because it turned out they were just consumed by rumors. He couldn't differentiate between Juis and Israel. He couldn't differentiate between Israel and Zionism. Well, I ended up chatting with

this person and it turned out he was Lebanese. Hmm. And he wasn't Muslim either, he was a Maronite Christian. So we ended up chatting and we became friends. Well, from there, I found out this was about knowledge, bro. Knowledge. Finally, when I returned to Indonesia, I worked here and had the opportunity to travel to those regions, including Africa. I —I—I went to the east coast of

Africa, to the center, and to the west. I've been to Africa three times. I observed that the root of all these radical, extreme, and terrorist actions is actually political ambitions disguised as religion, hijacking piety, and so on. Then I tried to distort various religious interpretations. From there, I still have a hidden obsession: on the one hand, I have to work according to my job. But on the other hand, I have an obsession: one day, I

must fight all of this. Because if Indonesia can't be resolved today, one day, Indonesia will be like Somalia, Mozambique, Somaliland, or, uh, Nigeria , which I've visited. Including Swahili in Kenya. I'm already proud. I know the friction between the communities there, anti-Balaka and Seleka, and so on. I understand all of that. Including Sudan . I've visited Hasan Turabi's movements . I studied it thoroughly while working . I read all the literature, the

conflicts in Rwanda, and so on. I studied it all. It turns out everything was based on the politicization of religion. Well, that's what motivated me to read books nonstop while in prison, bro. That was the lesson for me in prison. I literally clung to books as bedtime companions until my eyesight actually deteriorated in prison. Because I completely memorized the Quran there, and I count it at around 423 books in 22 months in prison. From

there, I read concepts from Daniel Kochler, Elena Gruening, Scott Atron, and so on. I also explored philosophical concepts, including acuity, all the thoughts of verfasungs, patriotismus, including Islamic, Catholic, Hindu, and Buddhist philosophical thoughts—I studied them all there. In our context, we come to the most interesting part of your article. How worrying is all of what we call

radicalism and so on in our context? From our perspective today, here's a simple illustration, a simple analogy, bro. Right now, I'm from the perspective of Densus 88, where I work as a prevention expert. I haven't been asked this yet, but I've already answered it. Maybe this is also an answer to the audience. I'm often told, 'I work with the BNPT,' so I'll answer first. I'm an expert in preventing radicalism, extremism, and

terrorism at the National Police Headquarters, specifically Densus 88. Back when Densus 88 was first formed, the various targets in many regions were only a few regional task forces, the WHL Task Force. This meant only a few provinces, for example, in Central Sulawesi, there were Palu, Poso, Parigi Mutong, and so on. Then Lampung, maybe part of Central Java, part of West Java, part of East Java—only

certain areas. Today, all Densus 88 regional task forces in 34 provinces have monitoring targets. What does that mean? It's spread out, it's spread evenly across all regions, meaning that these radical group movements already exist in all regions. In the past, it was limited to certain regions, maybe 3 , 4, or 5 spots. But today, all 34 provinces have their own monitoring targets. This is already worrying. Secondly, these sleeping cells are

difficult to detect, very difficult to uncover except with human intelligence capabilities and perhaps IT intelligence. This is indeed very worrying in my eyes. I didn't think this was anything other than worrying. But when I started working with the Directorate of Prevention at Densus 88, I learned that this is chronic, and it's truly alarming. Luckily, there's only one, bro. The only one that can still give us a little breathing room.

The weakness of these terrorist groups is creating momentum for terror. How? Yes, they always capitalize on revolutionary events or other potentially dangerous events. This isn't just a problem for terrorist groups in Indonesia. Terrorist groups around the world that haven't been properly mobilized typically wait for their momentum, which is difficult. That's why their movements are sporadic , like the recent Astana bombing. They

can only attack state symbols, but triggering a revolution is difficult. If the 1998 terrorist group in Indonesia were as organized as it is today, they might have also joined them in hijacking various groups, and Indonesia could be under their control today. You used the word "tidy," right? How should we understand the word "tidy " in many minds? Does it mean they're ready to move and are just waiting for the momentum, or perhaps they've

penetrated all segments of our society, from formal to informal groups? Tidy means structurally, in terms of funding, education, cadre development, and recruitment—everything is in order. The only one in Indonesia that's so organized is Jemah Islamiah. The measure of that tidiness, Bro, is that when one leader is captured, the next leader automatically emerges. Just like ISIS. Yes. Using a cell system, yes. Yes,

it's the same. And Ji is like that too. Starting with the capture of Ji's last leader, Parawijayanto, for example, he immediately emerged as an emir, a leader with an extraordinary structure, with departments already functioning according to their respective areas. Recruitment is underway, everything is underway, and this is indeed undetectable on the surface except through intelligence forces. Earlier, you said that this has entered too far.

The main question for us now is this, Mas Isla. Is this due to Ansih's beliefs or political ones? The earlier part used politics. If it's political, there's something understandable there: they might be disappointed with Islamic groups, they say. Yes, I used their term. Their version is that they don't have sufficient roles

in state governance. One variant of the opinion says that. Although it's been countered by, say, the Coordinating Minister for Political, Legal, and Security Affairs, Mr. Map, with arguments that I think are quite comprehensive. If they use the word belief, don't they see what happened during the Arab Spring phenomenon? How are countries destroyed by things like this? How should we understand this situation, Gus?

Well, I agree with what Mr. Mahfud put forward at the time. This isn't just a matter of regional religious disillusionment with political spaces. This is actually an old political ideal . Groups advocating theocracy always use reflections of the past that are considered the most ideal. This is always the case with pan-Islamist movements, these caliphate movements always use ideal references from the past. They believe that Islam

was once glorious because it controlled political spaces. It controlled political territories. What they always echo is the conquest of Constantinople. Okay. Islamic political control in Andalusia, and Islam was once glorious and made Baghdad the epicenter of world politics , and so on, which is seen from that perspective. But they never saw the side of failure after that. Well, this

ideal of Islamism is what they then proclaim, that we must uphold this religion by establishing the Islamic Caliphate. All terrorist movements always have that goal. Because these religious interpretations have been modified into political ideological movements. Okay. So if we look at Alsabab, the book Haram, Hasan Turabi, Laskar Ataibah, Jabatun Nusro, all of these movements are always rebellious against the state

or separatist in nature. More or less like that. What does that mean? They want to dominate, to hegemonize political spaces, assuming that all of this can be homogenized into their version of Islam. Hmm. They know that Islam is the majority in Indonesia, for example, but it's not their version of Islam. Okay. That's why they continue to move to establish an Islamic state, which they

believe is their version of Islam. Well , this is what then circulates in all of us: all terrorist organizations have political goals. All of them, all... This means that movements that lack political goals ultimately lead to Islamic preaching, which is based on the principles of Sufism and so on. But when their movements, especially those that involve violence, engage in political matters, they certainly have political goals, because through

violence they can spark revolutionary movements. This is the teaching of Syid Kutub in Maim Fil Thariq. This means that all of these organizations are working to form thaiah-toliah, small elite units that are then based on the revolutionary force I mentioned earlier. Why then, and especially our friends or groups who are doing various things to establish a lafalah, a caliphate, and all that, don't learn from what happened in the

Middle East, which I mentioned earlier, the destruction caused by the Arab Spring. It's not just possible like this, Bang, ee permission, Bang. One of the weaknesses of the Muslim community is that they always hide their bitter past history under the carpet. This is our habit. We always try to avoid dark histories, preventing us from learning from them. Islam was once in ruins due to the politicization of religion, including the eventual rise of Islamic

political forces in Andalusia. It simply collapsed, leaving nothing behind. All that was left were mosques converted into churches, Islamic palaces—or Islamic politics —symbols of Islamic political splendor converted into museums, and so on. That was all that was left. Nothing of faith was left behind. We should have learned from this. Our habit of burying these negative histories doesn't serve as a lesson for us today.

If we want to determine our destiny today, we should look to the past. Then we can plan our future. One of the mistakes of Islamic groups like mine, and perhaps most of us, is that they still dream of this country becoming an Islamic state so that all Indonesians can be converted to Islam. This is a wrong concept, very wrong, very wrong. Totally, definitely. Because we have never had a glorious history in Islamic politics.

Never. Never a glorious history. Never. Even the caliphate itself, after its fall in Turkey in 1924, couldn't even save itself. Today, no country uses this political system. Some time ago, I had a discussion with friends who call themselves activists. That's roughly how I fit into the whole group, right? Yes. So then they filed a lawsuit and

hoped that the glory of Islam would return, and the main reference was the form of the 7th century. So then I asked a question, the answer to which also seemed biased. What exactly are we today, Islam today, interpreting the future like? Do you have any notes on that? Yes, that's right. I agree that Islam has a future. But one key point is that Islam must remain a religion that can bless everything in this universe. The

Prophet always repeated that. That Islam is a religion that must be a blessing for the entire universe, from the beginning of the last days until the Day of Judgment. This means don't force Islam to regress to the Middle Ages. Okay. Or back to the 7th century AD. If we want to talk about the future. The people today who face anomalies and ambiguity are those who insist that

Islam use references from the early or medieval ages. Meanwhile, we live in a very different era than they did, with human civilization moving much faster. So if Islam continues to insist on returning to the past centuries, then Islam is the same as being forced to live in…what? very primitive circumstances. That's what I mean, Gus. How exactly should we interpret it? I'm not a religious expert, I never studied at a boarding

school, but I honestly ask very seriously, how should we interpret Islam, namely, interpret the future when we are no longer able to escape it. I use a word that…maybe simple, but it turns out that it carries a big risk, being unable to escape. One example is, yes. HP, yes. How can we then not escape from this? I contacted you, who traveled around Indonesia, via cell phone. I can imagine if we weren't

adaptive to the future called technology, how we would have to negotiate and so on. Am I misunderstanding that? No. I think it's because we all adhere to religious interpretations today, as I often say in various media outlets. Huh. We all adhere to religious interpretations today. Is Saudi Arabia, which doesn't require the hijab for its citizens, changing religious law? No.

It's changing its religious interpretation. The interpretation is changed, the religion remains. For example, Bang. Uh, for example, uh, usury is haram. We agree that usury is haram. What should be used as a reference today is the interpretation of usury? So, if we all believe that the Qur'an clearly states that usury is haram and we agree with that, does conventional banking today fall into the usury category? This is a matter of

interpretation. Hmm. Is dog saliva impure (mughalladah), for example, or is it gravely impure? Meanwhile, there are other scholars, other schools of thought, who consider it ordinary impurity. This is all a matter of interpretation. That's why in Islam there are schools of thought, there are manhaj, there is ijtihad. These are all interpretations of scholars of the past. If we force the

interpretations of medieval scholars to be applied today, everything will be completely different. Because human civilization today has changed completely. For example, in the past, handing over from a guardian for marriage was something, right, Bang? Hmm. Back then, all the majority of scholars, all the scholars, said it was haram. When cellphones first appeared, it was forbidden. Handing over from a guardian

to a judge was not permitted. The person had to be present and then shake hands to physically hand over the handover. But today, many scholars allow it, just by video call. What does that mean? Religious interpretation must ultimately yield to human civilization. Does that mean we deviate from all religious rules? Oh, no. After all, all religions have always lived with the interpretations

and interpretations of scholars. This means that if we today insist on using the interpretations of medieval scholars, for example, from the 12th or 13th centuries, while they had their own challenges, they had their own challenges at that time, and then we force them today with different challenges, we will ultimately be left with complete ambiguity. What are the risks for us? Well, these are religious issues.

Perhaps the risk for us is that all we need is ushul fiqh (jurisprudence), fiqh references. As long as there are scholars who permit it, we just go along with it. For example, many still consider conventional banks haram, for example. But the scholars of the Egyptian Darul Iftah, for example, have already permitted it. The consideration is this , bro. If we forbid conventional banks, how far can we distance ourselves from

bank products? Meanwhile, the paper money we use for daily transactions is a conventional bank product. This means we forbid conventional banks, but we use their products every day. This is hypocritical. Well, here are the interpretations. This means that if we assume that this religious interpretation must stop in the Middle Ages, then what is the function of religion as a blessing for the entire universe? If I do this, sir. Why do I

say that these interpretations are a matter of interpretation by the ulama. Yes, let's just go with it. There are schools of thought there, namely Imam Syafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi, Hanbali and so on. We just chose it because it is the reference with its various interpretations and knowledge. If we really want to be considered as religious believers, reposition the function of religion. Don't use this religion as a tool to emphasize hatred.

We must not divide because of religious issues. We make this religion a vessel for building humanity and peace. That's the function of religion. For matters at the practical level, yes, we must still refer to interpretations. We can't avoid it. In connection with this , I enter the area of geopolitics. A religious expert once came to me and said that the future of Islam, along with all its studies, is now in and heading towards

Indonesia. The Arabs have entered the realm of "Merdup," especially when Arab countries have changed their stances so drastically. Even in a political context, they have chosen to befriend Israel. How do we see Qatar and even Saudi Arabia establishing cooperation with Israel in all aspects of military agriculture and then abandoning Palestine, which is increasingly oppressed? Is that how it

is in my opinion? Yes, it means that, "Eh, the epicenter of politics, if we talk about past history," starting from Athens, then moving to Rome, from Rome to Baghdad, and even more so, if we jumpstart the clock to today, and it turns out the world's epicenter is in New York, for example, NASDAQ, Wall Street, all determined from there. This means that human civilization is always moving from

place to place, including the pendulums of global politics. In the past, perhaps, "Eh, the Middle East was the idol of various political powers. Meaning, the battleground was there, but it turns out these oil reserves cannot be relied upon in the future. This means that the Arabs will have their time, right? Although all epicenters of civilization began there, religion also began there. But ultimately, realistically, I think this

global struggle is increasingly shifting to America—or, sorry, to South Asia, for example, after the Middle East, it's shifting to South Asia. There are militant movements there from Afghanistan, India, Jammu, Kashmir, Pakistan, and so on. This is an extraordinary struggle. Then, slowly , there are separatist movements in Southern Thailand, there are separatist movements—where? In the Philippines, in Malaysia, and in the South. If we

look at this movement, ultimately, if we talk about future world powers, they will all ultimately be in Indonesia. So , if that's the situation, given the context you first explained earlier, isn't that a major task that we must, uh, overcome, organize, when the understanding and/or perspectives of some groups regarding Islam apparently can't shift from the Middle Ages? Yes, that's right. Indonesia has become a melting pot of various ideological

battles, including intelligence operations from various countries today . Okay. Including control of various—uh, what are we calling natural resources and so on. This is a battle to truly become a melting pot. Today, transnational ideologies like Wahhabism and the caliphate, starting with Hizbut Tahrir and the Muslim Brotherhood movements in Egypt, have all been forcibly exported to our country. Let's

not even talk about left-wing ideologies and anarchosyndicalism, all of which were born and raised. This means everyone has the potential to grow here. Hey, the epicenter is here. And we must understand that Indonesia is in the midst of a throng of Communist countries. Yes. If I were to talk about risk, Gus, yes.

Given the situation we've been discussing since the beginning, and the geopolitical realities mentioned above, it's actually risky if we don't prepare ourselves psychologically. Exactly. That's why I said earlier," Bro, if we don't start today, we'll really be leading our future generations down a path that will be very open to conflict if we can't resolve it today. "That's why this is a fire under the rug. If we don't extinguish it today, it will be a

shame for our future generations. We have dreams, for example, of a golden generation in 2045, but this will never be resolved if the problem of radicalism, extremism, and terrorism cannot be resolved today. This will truly be a disaster in the future. Yes. Uh, okay. But we can't just prepare ourselves to face it, Gus. It's ISIS. What I mean is, we have to find out the causes, beyond what we've discussed earlier, and also

find a solution. Some say that this isn't really about ideology, but about economics. If we want to talk about terrorism, if we look at it, it's not an economic issue. Economics may be a factor, just a small percentage, not the main factor. It's ideology. Take the people who became FTFs, for example . FTFs are foreign terrorist fighters who then went to Syria when ISIS was at its peak, around 2012 to 2015. These people are all rich. They have steady

jobs, they have incomes, there are doctors, there are pilots, there are palm oil farmers in Riau, and various people from the upper middle class who then sold all their assets and left. Okay. Second, there are people who are currently in terrorist groups like Ji, JAD, JAK, JAS, JAT, MIT, MIB, NI— there are so many of them. These are people who can afford to pay monthly dues to their organizations. Okay.

These organizations are all self-funded today, on average, because foreign funding is cut by the state, so they independently finance their groups and organizations. So, they are economically empowered. But there are indeed some cases where, due to economic problems, the ingrained ideology cannot be dismantled or deradicalized. Well, this is indeed the economy that supports them when they are hit by various ideological

understandings that then become residual in their heads, economic problems then make them worse. This is true. But if the problem is desperate, economic despair then makes them radical, extreme, and so on. I actually reject that theory. I reject this as not an economic issue. Why? These various terrorist movements don't just occur in poor countries; they even occur in Europe under different guises. In America, there's the Clux Clan,

there's white supremacy. The KKK is the KKK. In South America, middle-class groups also merge into the FC, for example, in Columbia. These are economically empowered people, drug dealers, all involved. What I mean is this. Okay. That's how identification works. Yes, and the government believes it. So then the government makes various efforts, including organizations

specifically for such civilized purposes. But why doesn't the government try experiments or trials? Who knows, maybe the economy is the cause, because we can try various things, various treatments. Yes, it's possible. It's possible. Why not do that? I think Densus 88 and the BNPT have already done this to empower former Napiten prisoners. Oh, I understand that. I really

understand, right? My friends are also involved, especially in Densus. But what I mean is in a larger context, for example, why not the BNPT and the government, the state too, but I mean in a larger context, for example, maybe from the mechanism side, ee, financial assistance, for example, if the business, in a larger context, ee provides assistance, for example, not only from what Densus does, which

has very limited funds, I know, so why not try it? I don't know from ee, from the government's side, because I work in ee as an expert in Densus prevention. But in my opinion, if we measure it from the economic level, it will never run linearly with the increase in extreme ideology. That's how it is. Including the theory, if we talk about theories, eh, counter-religious or radicalized, these

problems are not economic, they are ideological. That's why, research by Farah Pendit, a diplomat from the Obama administration, stated that almost 100% of the terrorism issues in the world that were then addressed by counterterrorism forces in many countries stem from a single ideological root: Wahhabism. Indeed, that's the root, meaning ideology. It doesn't matter whether you're rich or poor, whether you're stupid or smart.

But when someone is exposed to this ideology, they are cognitively shaped, slowly becoming rebels. Because one understanding within the minds of Wahhabis at that time was that any country that didn't adhere to God's laws was considered an infidel state that must be fought against by Darul Harbi. Well, this is the problem in many countries. So it's as if every Muslim in every country is destined to be a rebel. This is very anomalous to

the goals of Islam, which, in my opinion, is full of humanity, peace, and so on. What's interesting about a Baharawi Islam is your narrative, your arguments, and your approach to dealing with groups you consider radical, without any ambiguity. You've taken a position to confront them directly. Yes. It seems like you can answer all the accusations and counterattack. But have you actually measured how effective you were in convincing them

after hearing all your arguments and narratives? I have my own index. For that, we at Densus have our own metrics , parameters that we evaluate monthly. How do I influence people, how is it spread? On social media, there's share-to-share and so on. We have those metrics. We have a kind of cyber patrol to measure my influence. Okay. To many people, and thank God, I think there are many, and even I myself am not the one who

today dares to speak out about anti-radicalism, movements against intolerance, and so on. There are more and more, if you look at social media, everyone is stimulated. In the past, this silent majority wasn't provoked, wasn't provoked to speak out, they just hid. Today, many people are speaking out about the same thing. This is the same as talking about this when the UN issued a resolution on human rights in 1945. Before that, no one had ever

spoken about radicalism or intolerance, right? After the UN issued that resolution, everyone spoke out about intolerance, anti-radicalism, anti-terrorism, and so on. This means there must be a catalyst that can ultimately create a new world order. Well, today, based on those parameters, I can at least encourage others from the Silent Majority to speak up first. Well, on the other hand, besides social media, I thank you for inviting me,

this is my favorite. I am a subscriber, but I also accompanied myself in 2022 to 217 meeting points, ee meetings with the community in various forums on campuses, ee in mosques and Islamic boarding schools, including in ee four countries besides Indonesia and also in approximately 19 provinces. I accompanied this with amaliah movements, going head-to-head with people. There were also moderate

groups, but also with opposing groups. Because this must be resolved through discussion. Scientific discourse is an Islamic tradition. That's why Abdullah Ibn Abbas, when he wanted to deradicalize the Khawarij, visited them and engaged them in discussions, ultimately converting 6,000 people. Hmm. Awakening 6,000 people. Now, this is the method I have to use. Without discussion, there will be no solution

to what you're doing. At least, based on what we've seen, has your movement been successful? I think today, at least, I've been able to raise awareness among many people about the dangers of ideologies like these, using empirical data. So, when I speak, I do face a lot of opposition. I'd say that approximately 23,000 out of 400,000 members of the Indonesian National Police (Polri) have been exposed to the concept of wabism.

Okay, approximately 9,000 in the Indonesian National Armed Forces (TNI). I've faced opposition because of this. But I have the data. I always pick up with data. That's all I have. I never make accusations. I always say there are references, there are books, there is data if it's survey results. I always talk about data. Oh, there's the police love sunnah movement. This is the beginning of Wahhabism. Why do I

consider this dangerous? Because the findings in the police force show that there is a group called the real sunnah police. They claim to follow the Salafist method, but in reality, they have created subordination and disobedience within the police force itself. This is dangerous. The police have weapons, the police enforce the law. Ah, this is dangerous. And the pattern of terror groups around the world is always to infiltrate through

the Indonesian National Armed Forces ( TNI), through the police and the military first. Alabab also went through the police and the military. Specifically. Yes. This is interesting. What are your recommendations, specifically for the TNI and Polri, and have there been any steps taken to address this? The Polri is the only institution under the state that has issued a regulation that all its members are prohibited

from embracing this teaching. It's called Police Regulation No. 7, which was just released last June. Okay. Last year, 2022. This means it must be started, it must be emulated. If the state is unable to enact laws to stop radical ideas like this, it should at least start with its institutions. The police already have one, and this is the first of its kind in Indonesia. Coincidentally, I was on the team that

also helped formulate Police Regulation No. 7 on the issue of exclusive beliefs and, uh, radicalism. Have other institutions not? Has the Indonesian National Armed Forces (TNI) not? Not yet. The TNI must do this too. The Ministry of Institutions must do this. Otherwise, we will truly be devastated in the next 10-15 years. Interesting information. Now, back to your discussion partners. More precisely,

your discussion partners, actually your debate partners, are very extreme like that and you have often met in various forums. Do you feel they are capable of breaking you down, or vice versa? Look, in every discussion with this group, I never use arguments. I refuse to use arguments. Because anything in this world, when connected to various religious laws, must have an argument. Even if the argument is the same, the interpretation will be different.

Yes, that's how it is, bro. All the Qurans, which are truly sacred texts derived from the words" ee Allah ee God "alone, are subject to varying interpretations. I always use very logical, rational approaches. I also say, for example," How could God bequeath a political system? " God doesn't need politics. God has created and controls the universe. Humans are the ones who need parcels of

power. They use rivers, mountains, and oceans as boundaries for their territory. Okay. What does that mean? The creator of this political system is still humans, not God. But those who advocate the caliphate say the caliphate system is God's creation. Okay. These are narratives to emphasize their ambitions to politicize religion by

exploiting religion, while their ambitions are actually political. Moreover, I always provide the history of the caliphate, which states that this sura system is a system created by the Romans, the Roman Republic. This is just the Islamic version, including the almamlakah system, which is actually a regular monarchy. Or the Ahlul Walqdi system, which is actually the Roman plebiscite council. But the Ahlul Halli wal Aqdi is just the

Islamic version. This means don't claim that this is God's creation, let alone the creation of Muslims. People before Islam already did this. Well, this is logical, based on empirical data, historically. Including me saying that Palestine and Israel are not a religious war. This is a political war. Please read Simon Sebek Munti Fiori's book, for example. There's a basis for it: the global political struggle has always been over Jerusalem.

Well, I'm conveying logical things like this, and I always refuse to debate the arguments. This argument will never end until the end of the world. Everyone has their own interpretation. Everyone, including those killed by terrorists and those who kill terrorists, also has arguments. Concerned about the politicization of religion. We're entering the final part of our discussion. The election is just a year away, a few

days away. Yes. And Endi Lala, I don't know why we're still caught up in the issue of the politicization of religion, a reality that exists in our society. Yes. Especially since the 2017 Jakarta gubernatorial election. What are your notes regarding our upcoming election? Especially in this case, the presidential election, which seems so

far away, has been very lively, and whether we admit it or not, it seems some are happy and content to keep it in their political memory. Yes, if I'm being honest, Bang. 2024 will definitely be the highest culmination of the use of religious politicization. Okay. First, there have been narratives that the Ottoman Caliphate will collapse in exactly 100 years.

2024 is exactly 100 years, exactly a century. Second, it's then connected to a hadith that says every 100 years a mujadid, a reformer, will be born. Well , this is trying to be attached to one figure. Well, this will certainly become a strengthening narrative, and we know that politicizing religion is the quickest and cheapest way. The cost of politics is indeed very high. And when it's very high, people will seek the lowest political cost. So, what is

it? Using religion. Okay. And religion is indeed a ripe place for political narratives because there's dogma, martyrdom, and the concept of end-time prophecies about future political powers. So what's the end result? People who use the name of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, or Islam will certainly become easy targets to hypnotize the public more quickly and cheaply. After all, if they come to power, they're

just the same as human beings. Well, in our history, all religions have been devastated and destroyed because of this politicization of religion, right, Bang? That's why I'm always saying today, ahead of this election, let's just fight the politics of religion. Religious politics and identity politics are unavoidable because we're electorally based, right, Bang? This means that if a Muslim wants to enter Senayan, at the very least, he must

voice his Islam. If a Sulawesian or Madurese person wants to enter Senayan, at the very least, I have to represent my electoral district in Madura. That's not a normal problem. The problem is when identity and religion are politicized, when mosques are used as campaign arenas, churches are used as campaign platforms. Especially when I was about to run for office or become a presidential candidate, I changed my

name to Paulus Islam, for example. These symptoms have already begun to emerge. This means that Islam doesn't just exploit Islam in the end, but can also exploit Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on. Now, this is what is meant by the politicization of religion. It doesn't mean that just because someone enters a church, a mosque, a temple, or a monastery, they are considered a moderate figure. No. In fact, this is what truly uses

narratives of the politicization of religion. If we want to talk about healthy politics, we talk about programs, about nationality, pluralism above all else, and we talk about the entity of the Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia (NKRI), and so on. That's all, in my opinion. We shouldn't repeat our dark past. Christians are also divided over political issues. Islam too. Islam, as I often say, is Sunni and Shia because

of their 1,500-year-old political hostility, which has remained unresolved to this day. Christians did have political feuds, but they resolved them with the Westvale Agreement, the Peace of Praha, and they resolved them. But we never had any agreements. What's the end result? Saudi Arabia's enmity with Iran is synonymous with Sunni-Shia enmity. And it ultimately stuck. Yet all of this stems from political issues . Well, Indonesia shouldn't be divided

by that. Including cebong and kampret, these are legacies of the politicization of religion, right, Bang ? Including the Rp bazer, the palace bazer, kadrun, and so on. These are legacies of the narrative of the politicization of religion, whose enmity must then be preserved because my enmity is in the name of religion. Even though it's one religion. Due to the politicization of religion, people can label each other as infidels and

become hostile to anyone due to differences in political orientation. Even though they share the same religion and interpretation, and that still has the potential to happen in 2024, do you think it's very certain, considering the escalation, Bang? Especially with the disbandment, not the extension of the permit for organizations like the FPI, and the disbandment and denial of the permit for HTI, these will ultimately

become the markers of subtle movements that infiltrate. What I fear most is that the 2024 election will become the momentum of terror. That's the momentum of terror that I fear most. Don't let the 2024 election be designed by them to spark a revolution, and there are indications of that. If then extraordinary friction occurs, the tug-of-war of political interests, coupled with the extreme

right and extreme left, meeting in the middle, then clashes will occur. This is what I fear most. That's why today I went to those areas. I'm no longer focused on ideological issues. I'm more focused on the issue of opposing the politicization of religion. This is what I'll be doing until next year. Lastly, Mr. Islah Bahrawi, you've taken a position that not many people want to take because it involves risk. Yes.

I'm not trying to make you worry, but have you ever felt that the worst could happen to you with this extreme stance? Often. Very often. It makes me sad when we discuss this, but it's okay to discuss it. I often receive death threats, including on some WhatsApp accounts. I even blocked the numbers of those who frequently threatened me, but I screenshot them all. He knows where your child goes to school, and so on. I'm there. But I could have reported

him to the police. But would reporting him to the police and then having him arrested and imprisoned resolve his dislike of me? I don't see this as a solution. In any case, I must continue to raise awareness among the public. Let their cognitive awareness provide that awareness. And I often receive calls from some people, yes, after being profiled, it is true that in some cities, if you meet Islah in the city, wherever you are, just kill him, his

blood is halal. I am sometimes judged as an infidel, yes, this is a liberal infidel Shia, a product of America who wants to destroy Islam. Yes, I think like this, eh Bang, Sayidina Uthman was also considered an infidel before he was killed. Sayidina Ali was also considered an infidel before he was killed. And this is a common postulate from these disturbed groups who consider me an obstacle, an obstacle. I am considered someone who tries to

undermine their political goals that exploit this religion. I am often attacked personally, especially since I was once imprisoned. Oh, on social media I am always like that. Uh, you are called a fraud just talking about religion. I don't talk about religion. I talk about nation. Because I have a belief that if I love my nation, it means I love my religion. Right? Hubul waton minal iman in my friends at NU. But I'm also a Nahdlatul Ulama (NU),

and that's why I'm truly comfortable being a Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) today because I wasn't taught from childhood to hate anyone who was different. I was taught that way. But I was exposed to it, as I mentioned earlier, during college. I read books by Yusuf Alqardowi and others. I was a polar opposite, I read Muhammad, and I quickly changed because I used my rationality. And if we're talking about threats, thank God, I'll say that here

too. I, wallahi, I dedicate my life to my religion and this nation. I'm ready. I'm ready. Even if I have to be killed someday because of this struggle, that's okay. Maybe this is God's reward for me in heaven. Although I might not be pious in terms of piety. I'm an ordinary person. I'm just a book reader who wants to convey my religion as a religion based on love, humanity, and peace. That's all it is. Mas Isla Barrawi. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Emm. It's not easy for someone to be in your position and stand firm. I certainly do, and I'm sure many of my viewers here will understand and appreciate that. I just hope you're strong enough to remain in this position, and I'm sure many will look up to you. Amen. Goodness can't hide. It will appear in various places. Once again, is it still Islam Bahrawi? Yes.

Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Abah. That was my conversation with a strong, resilient person, Mas Isla Bahrawi. I invited him on purpose, and I let him share a lot. It's not like I usually host a show here. Because honestly, I wanted to understand his thoughts, movements, and beliefs. Up until now, he explained how he faced the punishment process, and he admitted it. It's not easy to confess to that level.

Thank you for watching.