MEUTYA HAFID MENJAWAB GUGATAN PUBLIK. "NAIF JIKA ANGGAP TAK ADA INTERVENSI ASING"

Well, Indonesia's technology isn't capable yet, which is why Starlink entered. We have already opened the permits, which is why Starlink is operating here . But we do hope for other competitors to emerge eventually, so it’s not a monopoly, right? The question is, is it really being blocked? And what about people's accusations saying, "Those with only tens of

followers are blocked, but the ones with millions are not," and so on. The difficult part is when it's inserted within social media platforms because that is their home. So, overall, what is the most difficult task for you as Minister? Is it the infrastructure or the substance? I feel we are no longer in an era where politics should always be gray. Can we still embrace ambiguous politics in Indonesia?

There are many smart people in Indonesia, right? Many. Right? We always end up just being users and then complaining when there are consequences. Has the Ministry of Communication and Digital not taken that initiative yet? So, I think it's naive to say that the internet is free from foreign intervention. Naive. I am trying to fight off this feeling of awkwardness.

Awkward because I have to interview a colleague, or even someone I consider a younger sister. But I am honored. I am joined by the Minister of Communication and Digital, and digital, yes, that's correct. Minister of Communication and Digital of the Republic of Indonesia, Meutya Hafid. Hi, Bang. What should I call you? "Ibu Minister" or what? I call you Bang. So, you can call me "

adik,""Dinda," or anything. Because back there 10 or 20 years ago, I used to call you Mumut. But I can't do that, it’s not polite. I have to learn to be polite in front of a minister. Yes, Madam Minister, thank you for coming here. Whatever you call it, you were the ones who taught me. Where was that, Muti? No, this is...but it's much more [ advanced] now, I don't think we were like this back then.

Much more sophisticated than us when we were journalists. So, since I lost my seat in the DPR, I had to do something as... You were also in Commission I, right? Never. I was in Commission III. Sometimes we were close because Commission I dealt with the TNI and I dealt with the police. But you often stopped by, I think, to chat.

Yes, just as usual, joining in on the long discussions and everything. Well, since I lost my DPR seat, and we are politicians, right? Politicians must have a stage. When your seat or your stage is taken away, you build your own stage. So I built this. H. And I ask for your help and insight so we can continue to be logical in delivering information to the public. Yes. Whatever it's called, we are

guided by the ministry. Thank you so much, because people today get information in such different ways than we did back then, Bang. Yes. So if I were an anchor in this era, perhaps no one would recognize me. Back then, people still watched television, so they memorized the news anchors and TV journalists, but now there are so many channels.

There are many channels, right. Which is good. I think this is democratic progress. And people like you, sir, are probably watched more than TV shows, you know. So that's the reading, Com. Because there is data that people getting information and news from social media is much higher than people watching the news. That's a fact. And it's not just in Indonesia, sir.

Okay. It’s like that worldwide. So we finally need to rethink our understanding of information. Wow, that's a great explanation. But we can't forget that habit when you were kidnapped and held hostage. Yeah. What year was that? 2005. By mujahideen. Calling themselves the Jaish al-Mujahideen group in Iraq.

In Iraq or Afghanistan? In Iraq. In Iraq, yeah. In Fallujah, that's the city name, sir. The city of Fallujah. So viewers, I want to try to review and rewind all of our memories, our public memory, that our minister here was once held hostage by an armed group in Iraq some years ago. A reminder, not so that I get taken hostage again, sir.

Okay. Now you are the Minister of Communication and Digital. Yeah. And governing the digital ecosystem. It's quite long, but Komdigi, let's say . Komdigi, sir, sir. If I may ask, what exactly is the focus of this ministry, or what is its precise duty within our government structure? Yeah. In the past, this was once the Ministry of Information, right? So the core is still there, which is

communication. So communicating government activities remains part of this ministry. Even though now we also work with BKP which has been formed as well. Then BKP. BKP, what is BKP? Oh, it’s BKP. But we previously it was the replacement, the replacement for the replacement for PCO, PCO.

Government Communication Agency. In short, we usually call it Bakom, but the abbreviation is BKP. So now the two of us carry out communication functions , but we also carry out infrastructure development functions. We call it 3T connected. So connecting Indonesia, connectivity, then growing, growing the digital ecosystem and being guarded. That is, guarding the digital realm. Digital realm. Yes, for example, all digital crimes.

It seems to be focusing a bit on that, right? Because out of those three pillars, the President, right at the beginning when he called us, the concern was online gambling. This is one of the negative impacts that exist in the digital realm. Actually, it's not just online gambling, crimes against children, pornography, hoaxes that have the potential to divide the nation, potential to damage democracy, that is

also part of being guarded. So we also guard the digital realm, build through its infrastructure, and ensure that economically, this digital realm can also grow the economy. It’s quite broad, sir? Yes, not quite broad, too broad in my opinion. So starting from infrastructure development to delays in that process? Yes. Ensuring it grows economically. Growing not just economically, but

being beneficial to the people as well. But in order for that to happen, we also have to secure this digital realm from negative things. In that case, I will follow that logic. Let's talk about the infrastructure aspect first. Yeah. Uh. Can we already say that there are no more communication blank spots in this country? In terms of population, 220 million people are already connected. That

means we still have homework to do because it means only 84%of Indonesians are connected. These 16%become our next homework. What is the problem? There are still 2,000 villages that are not connected at all. Uh, there are 5,000 villages if we count those that are not connected at all and those with weak signals. So those are our homework assignments. This is already quite small, brother. But the point is, we still want 100%.

Indonesia is indeed very vast, brother. We are 280 million people, not to mention the size of Indonesia, with tens of thousands of islands. So our development challenge is not like Singapore, not like Malaysia, not like most other countries. Nevertheless, it must be resolved. So, one of our ways, for the sake of efficiency so that development doesn't burden the state budget too much. We summon our operators and tell them who builds in

which area. Basically, by 2026, this homework must be covered. Back then, if I'm not mistaken, when the minister was my friend who it's a pity he slipped up uh, Johnny Plate, there was a program called Sakti, right? Uh, what was it called? Sakti, right, Latif? Satria. Oh. Uh, under Bakti, not Satri. The program is called Satria.

Then we also built BTS towers. Yeah. Up until now, it's still Bakti, a BLU agency under the Ministry of Communication and Informatics tasked with building that connectivity. Finally, we thought of another way. So don't burden the state budget too much anymore. Worried it might be like before. So we try to find solutions to build in underdeveloped areas with operators, and indeed we have to be a

bit, you know, firm with the operators because it's more of an invitation, not forcing them, to enter areas where the number of people might be small, brother. So economically, it might not necessarily be viable. That's why the government used to build down to the village level. Nevertheless, we are confident that our operator friends— and we have called them, we have talked —are willing to work together to build in those regions. We also just

released one frequency band called 1.4 GHz for fixed wireless access. This didn't exist before because well, releasing a frequency requires courage, brother. Because when we introduce new technology, there's always disruption, as is the case with technology. But yesterday we already talked with the operators. If we don't, we can't do it. We have to release this . You all must be ready for disruptions in your fields, so this new technology,

if you might have seen that cheap internet stuff that is it. So we are trying to reach the regions, the homes to reach villages that haven't been reached by the internet yet. Don't worry, Madam Minister. We provide our support. It means like this, sorry for interrupting. Um what should I say, while thanking those called investors, but they shouldn't

just be in profitable areas, they must take a part of that, what was it, that’s not right. The government can't be the one taking the bones while you take the meat, that won't do. In this case, what is our stance? Our stance is quite firm here, team. Agreed, right, brother? Of course. We support it, right? So, for the investors, but that's how it should be, we must push the operators

to think more with a national spirit. There is one technology disrupting the telecommunications ecosystem that doesn't seem to have been explained enough to the public, regarding Starlink; technologically, it's simply like this. This is Elon Musk's advantage. So they created satellites located in various places up there in the sky, where there are no more blank spots. The fundamental question is, are we using

it already, and if used, what is the formula? So the technology is called, these are low satellites, lower satellites. So they really are a constellation, brother, they rotate. Yeah. Like that. They change positions, unlike regular satellites that are stationary, right, brother? Or take a long time to rotate. So it's roughly like that, and it uses low

earth orbit, and indeed, Indonesian technology isn't capable yet, which is why Starlink entered. We have opened the permit, which is why Starlink is operating here. But we do hope for other competitors in the future so it isn't the only one, right, brother? Hm. So it isn't a single player in that realm. That is indeed for the future, yesterday there was a lot of input, why

don't we go directly from satellite to mobile phone, so it doesn't go through a cellular operator. In the future, technology will indeed be able to do that. Yes. I mean, my simple logic says that it seems it could directly cover the 16 %shortfall that the Minister mentioned earlier, right? Yes. The connection still cannot be based on towers, it still cannot replace that. Like during the disaster yesterday, we

opened it partially for video calls and such; it really can't handle video, for video it's not really capable, but it bridges communication, that's right, that's why we allowed it; not all countries allow it. Oh, I see. Right, not all countries allow it due to security considerations and considerations of technological choices . So indeed, there are many technological choices now. Earlier we

mentioned fixed wireless access, that is also one of the new technologies we are adopting. Every country has a different approach, brother. But we are quite open, right, brother. So if there is such technology, why not , we just need to maintain how our sovereignty is kept. Yes. I agree with that. Okay. It's pleasing to hear that this nation is moving forward. Viewers of Akbar Faizal Uncensored, it turns out the Ministry

of Communication and Digital is taking a moderate stance to open up, quote-unquote, regarding that. So eventually, when I call my grandparents in our village, because these are Soppeng people, there shouldn't be any obstacles anymore. Now it's already there, the connection has reached it. It has reached there, right. Okay, now let's talk about the system and or the content itself. There is so much that

you are working on. It turns out what you said earlier is not a small amount. But I have two deputy ministers, brother. That is why, I have two deputy ministers given by the President because indeed the scope is broad. Eh, but still, the minister's signature is needed, right, it can't be otherwise . It can't just be the deputy minister's signature, it has to be clear, right. Okay.

Yes. There are many issues within it. Uh-huh. I want to know how the Ministry of Communication and Digital responds, seeing as you mentioned very well earlier how our digital world, quote-unquote, has stripped away some of our communication norms. There are many disturbances occurring within it, and then that disrupts stability. Lastly, there was Panji, Panji who did stand-up comedy and then

it became a problem. Yesterday Panji had to go to our village to apologize and had to be fined there. But that is not the issue. How does the Ministry of Communication and Digital understand this and open space so that, first, there are rules of the game we must agree on, but on the other side, which is far more substantial, is the freedom to act and speak in the name of the democracy we agreed upon, so it is not violated. On

these parts, it seems I've been quite troubled lately. You're troubled, brother? Yes. What do you feel? Uh, the occurrence of communal disagreement in this nation's community , especially in law enforcement agencies regarding that freedom. I sometimes see, why are we so easily offended, so easily reporting people? Yes. Even that is adopted by an

official who received a mandate from the people to work. When the people criticize, don't get offended. I used to be in the DPR, and you were also in the DPR. We were criticized every day, we accepted it as it is because that is part of their love. I return to the topic earlier, how does this ministry create a barrier so that each side is not violated? Our guide is definitely the law,

brother. The law that regulates what is allowed and what is not allowed. Heh. Um, among them, of course, is pornography; we are talking about all crimes in the digital realm, then, uh, bullying, um, ethnicity, religion, or SARA—those things are also not allowed, those principles must be upheld and cannot be violated. Um, DFK is also not allowed, like that. So what is DFK? Disinformation and hatred.

Okay. So that also means slander and hatred. Slander and hoaxes are also not allowed . Okay. That's clear. That is clearly a criminal offense. So, uh, that's the baseline, Bang. Anything outside of that means a violation has occurred. Um, look, Madam Minister, of course, we agree on that. But what I mean is, in the name of the authority and power you

currently have, this ministry should take a step or two forward. For example , abroad, in Korea for instance, Uh-huh. There is a rule in schools yes uh it's not allowed that someone who bullies or has bullied their peers is not accepted at the next school or at the higher level. I imagine we

should follow steps like that. That must be the case. But I don't work alone, Bang. If it's in schools, that's the domain of, uh, Basic and Secondary Education; we have already talked about it. Just as, for example, we are currently implementing how these children in the digital realm have their access delayed until the age of 16. But, uh, I also conveyed that this won't be effective if the addiction is

not reduced. The way to reduce addiction is to also limit it in schools. Don't, um, let children be given access to cellphones in school, like that. But indeed, this decision must be inter-institutional, and the ministerial regulation cannot just come from, uh, the Ministry of Communication . Meaning, such rules are impossible for us to issue alone. Like, for example, internet crime, uh, online scams in Singapore.

Why did it drop significantly? Even though they also experience the same thing. Every country experiences the same challenges. But there is the law of caning. You know about the ones being whipped; so they apply a law that is considered a very rarely applied law if they are online scam perpetrators, including online gambling. Oh, yes. So they are punished by whipping. So prevention and law enforcement must

always go hand in hand. We can't just keep taking down and taking down content. We have already taken down 3 million pieces of content, Bang, for online gambling. But if, for example, the punishment we take hasn't made society deterred, then people won't stop, like that. So this must always be —I just came from a leadership meeting and I also conveyed this—we must move, uh, together where prevention and the approach of,

uh, law enforcement are balanced. Take an example, Bang. Yesterday, when Grok was quite crowded with pornography we blocked it; we were the first country to block it. Oh, right. Then, um, there is France, which also enforces—they didn't block it, but they took, uh, law enforcement steps instead. This is a country's choice, Bang. How do they do it? Their offices were

visited and raided by police, and legally they officially summoned Elon Musk himself to come and answer to the law in France, supported by EU nations. So, every country is still different. Take India's stance on Meta, for example, where Meta was also accused of being negligent regarding crimes in the digital realm. Yeah. Meta was threatened legally by the Supreme Court that if they didn't comply with the regulations in India,

they wouldn't be allowed to operate there. So, each country has this model, and we keep exercising it. Which step is the most appropriate, really? Sorry, I want to ask, this is a bit crucial. Do we have enough power to conduct bargaining using a model like the one in France and so on? We have the power for that, right? France wasn't bargaining; they went straight to the office, raided by the police. Not attacked, that's not the

right word. A raid, rather. Yes, a raid and search by the police. Do we have the power to bargain with other models, perhaps? But essentially, the nature is the same. For us, since our ministry's authority includes cutting off access, we did it immediately, even though no other country had done so at the time. Specifically for Grok. For Grok.

It was nerve-wracking at first, wondering if they would comply. Thank God they complied. Right? They sent regional representatives to discuss with our team, issued a letter promising to improve their system, and finally, we reopened it, still under supervision. And that is how it should be; my language might be a bit extreme, but they must follow our lead because our market is huge—how many internet

users do we have now? Sometimes they know they are backed by netizens. Especially if it's a platform that people like. They often feel that the government wouldn't shut them down because they fear being criticized. But yesterday, it went too far, when images of women could be edited toward nudity and then displayed plainly to the public. Very easily. And children could still

see it. So, we took the harshest step of cutting off access. We will give full support, Madam Minister. Don't worry, this forum will be firm in providing support to the Ministry; there are always those who say it violates freedom of expression. That is what we really want to convey through forums like this: freedom of expression doesn't include teaching pornography or encouraging it. Criticism is allowed, but not using,

excuse me, profanity—those vulgar words are used so often now. So sometimes it's criticism, but mixed with. Those words. Now, it becomes a question of whether that's criticism or not. Yes . It's a shame because we actually want to hear the criticism, but the noise is just too much. I have my own way of dealing with that personally, you know.

It's easy, since I'm a fairly active user, I just block them. It’s none of my business, right? But as a government entity, you can't really do that, can you? We have to formulate an approach, and it’s not to protect the government or officials. It’s person to person. Right. Actually, most people who get targeted aren't officials, they're celebrities, Bang. Oh. The backlash they get is extraordinary.

Regardless of whether they're right or wrong. Then there are kids being bullied; many cases show that they aren't even famous . If they were famous, we might hope they understand, since they're in the public eye. Sometimes, ordinary people suddenly get caught up in a small issue that blows up, and they get harassed by the masses, Bang. Regardless, for example, there's that tumbler issue on the train.

I'm not saying the person was right, but we were observing it, and the level of harassment was extraordinary. I mean, hopefully, the person stays in good health. I, and we here, I'm sure my colleagues who manage this forum, are truly convinced that the price we pay to move forward isn't cheap. But, again, on this note, I proudly say, "My dear Minister, do your best so that this

nation truly reaches that future." Give us, give us the support, including for that. "Okay. I heard a word earlier, what was it? Title. Yes. This question is often asked to the Ministry of Digital Communication. Yes. Is it true they are blocked? I am very happy to be asked this. I’m glad, if I’m accused of things, I can’t answer them one by one. The

question is, is it true they are blocked? Yes. Then, what about the accusations saying :" Only those with a few followers are blocked, while those with millions aren't, "and even getting into areas outside the Minister's duties, claiming there are powerful people behind it, and so on. Please give us an explanation regarding that. We have blocked since October 20th,

when President Prabowo was entrusted to be president; from his inauguration until today, it’s 3 million, 2.9 million [entities]. So, I checked that 3 million figure before coming here, Bang. Because I knew I would be asked about websites. Websites. Yes. And also, what is it called? Besides the websites, we also block the ads that appear on digital platforms. This is what frustrates us, because most

people see these ads appearing on, well , you see them on Facebook, you see them here. Well, we also ask the platforms, if you encounter this and you already know Indonesian law, you should self-censor. Do we have to keep telling you? Sometimes there are even official ads, brother, from these digital platforms. Oh. In their official paid ads, their excuse is that it's a game, even though

there's gambling inside. So, it's like that. So, we do have some difficulty. Websites are easier. So, of that, 2.90% are websites, brother. The hard part is when they are inserted into social media platforms, because that's their house, they are the ones who can take them down. For example, if it's on IG, we have to tell IG first. IG, we found gambling content on your platform, please take it down. That takes time, brother, when we have to go one by one

and ask them, please, these are the rules in Indonesia, you cannot allow this and must self-censor. We discuss this day by day at our office. I actually said, brother, I now like to bring those along. Printed website addresses as proof that they have been tracked. Yes. Some voices we hear say there's no point in blocking them or, what do you call it, cutting them off because in a very short time and at very low cost,

they can just make more. AI with AI. Yes. So people then think, the only way to break the chain is. Hmm. To find and or punish the perpetrators. But then again, this isn't my main authority. I said earlier, brother, from the start we are about prevention, leaving them alone is also wrong. Even though we know that effectiveness

comes from punishing the perpetrator, but before punishment happens, if we let the site be, it's also wrong, brother. Yeah. So even though we know that if we close it, it will grow back, it's still wrong if we don't close it at that moment. We find it and we don't close it. So, in our preventive steps, we close it. But yes, as I said, to be effective, it must go hand in hand. So law enforcement must also happen and

it must be tough. We understand your answer, Minister. So. I forgot to mention, this data is from the PPATK, not the Ministry, doing the assessment. So from 300 trillion, it dropped to 150 trillion. I know, brother, there is still a lot of homework, but this is from 300 trillion , trillion, trillion. That's circulating. How come. It dropped to 150. I know this isn't a

maximum achievement, far from it. But I hope the direction is right, brother. Why do I seem so dramatic? I know these people, right? I know who these people are. But I have to pretend to be shocked, right? Oh, okay. But, Madam Minister, I can truly understand your answer. Uh, viewers, I’m taking the initiative to say this: this can't just be the Minister or the Ministry of Communication alone, because there are many involved in it. PPATK is here;

Ivan has already said as much in this place. Oh, he’s already said it, right? It seems we actually have quite a few government officials here, don't we? But people say you’re usually fierce, Abang. Thank God, not with me. Oh, haven't been fierce yet. Still looking for it, then. Ah, this is the difficulty when we’re dealing with our teacher in an interview like this.

Okay. Uh, okay. We can accept that, Madam Minister. We do hope that this will truly be teamwork, a government team, I mean. So I don't need to explain that too far. I’m still on the topic of content. Yeah. And this is the concern of this forum. This forum is like this. Anything that violates the entire democratic order is an opponent to us in this forum. Yes.

Now, one of the things our digital world is facing is whether or not it tramples on the democratic order. We already discussed that a bit earlier. That many institutions in this country, or perhaps the people in power, are very easily offended, even by something they might have done themselves or even things that are part of their duties. Um, so my question becomes simple. Can the Ministry of Communication take the initiative to

stand with democracy itself? Yeah. And provide guidance to those who want to uphold it when a case arises, for example, so we can grow together. For example, let’s say, Panji. Never mind Panji. The fact that he uses different language than what we use in social spaces. Maybe yes, sometimes I don’t think Panji is funny, sometimes he’s annoying, but I don’t need to report

him for that unfunny stuff. I don’t watch it, so I don’t really ... That’s the point. That’s why I mean like this, reported by uh, various parties, there are a few. Coming in. But the one related to Toraja, right, Abang? Uh, not just Toraja, there are many

that were, Panji was there for how long ? 2 hours, right? 2 hours he was ranting there, right? Uh , like I said, Panji isn't always funny , you know, but what he expressed doesn't need to become a criminal case. Now, if there is an event like that, and then the Ministry, with, what is it called? Their duty, explains to law enforcement by saying," Gentlemen, this is indeed bothering us,

but let's not violate what you call that, the fortress of democracy. "Have you ever thought about that? Uh, Madam Minister? Communication is ongoing, Abang. Coincidentally, the Director General of Digital Space Supervision is also from the police. So uh, there is always daily coordination between, uh, uh, what is it called? Minister Kominfo and the team at Kominfo, I suppose. But

why are so many still offended? So easily offended, right, Bang? May I ask? I cannot speak for them. Yes. But sometimes they might feel, Bang, that it wasn't just criticism. I don't know because there hasn't been a case. Each case will certainly be different regarding whether there really was a violation. If they ask us, we usually help clarify if there is a violation

here. If there isn't, then there isn't. But sometimes that is indeed, well, difficult, Bang. It’s different. I don't know exactly what you mean by that. Let me give you an example. Back then, I once argued with Rocky Gerung, our friend, on a television show about, uh, holy books, I forgot the name. The next day, the police came to me, trying to find out why and all that. I explained the context, and I remember

my words very well to the officers who came to my house. I disagree with Rocky. But if he is to be prosecuted because of that, I will be the first one to defend him. My point is that these are the bitter things we must go through so we can become more mature. What does that have to do with Kominfo? That’s what I just explained. Can't Kominfo act as an advisor to the institution? No, no, it doesn't go that far. Have

you ever thought about that, Madam Minister? Well, like I said, there is coordination, Bang, but not in the capacity of one institution advising another, right, Bang? Like that. So as partners, there is there is it happens. Okay, time is pressing us, so I will move on to the next discussion topic. I must use this opportunity. It's rare

for my minister, my younger sister, to come here. You were invited from the start, but I apologize for only coming now. Bang, there are many assignments from the President. I understand. I want to ask about one of them. Yes. Regarding internal communication, the President's decision to join the board of, what is it, peace in Gaza,

made the atmosphere uncomfortable for the parties involved. There are some institutions that, well, let's just ignore them. Initially they refused, then suddenly they joined, right? And those are religious institutions. There are some figures who were initially harsh but suddenly just gave in. But my point is, subconsciously, there is resistance to that. In this part, it seems the role of the state and/or government speakers did

not take enough initiative to explain it. May we know what happened regarding the board of peace? I happened to be in Davos at that time, accompanying the President. So what do you call it? He, the morning before speaking, did attend a meeting, and there we saw that it was the most appropriate step before it happened. At first, I even wondered, why didn't the public support it? That, to me, was a bit strange. But we must always listen,

brother. Communication duties aren't just about talking, but trying to absorb things, right. Are there parties who then made decisions that I think should have been understood as a step toward peace, but were then twisted, for example like this: even European countries don't support it. Like that. Yes, that's right. Exactly. Those European countries

mentioned were also the first ones to support the war in Iraq back then. So, why use that as an example instead of using other Islamic countries that are there? So this is a perspective of taking, what is it, a viewpoint in looking at the world of peace that also makes us feel that, oh, it seems like there is someone playing here too, brother. So indeed, this homework, you are right , the homework to communicate faster is

truly our main task. Uh-huh. And we need a lot of improvements there , including in the Ministry of Digital Communication. Hm. Like that. But social media, brother, makes bad things rise faster than things that—if it’s controversial, it just shoots up. But if we explain with, uh, a normal explanation, it usually takes longer to be grasped by

the public. But in principle, this becomes a step that— Because there were no steps taken previously, brother. That is what I want to say. There were no steps whatsoever. They were isolated; no one could get in. Yes . We could only watch. From broadcasts that are even censored on social media. When it comes to broadcasts from

Palestine, platforms can censor them. Okay. When it comes to violence, or hoaxes, or whatever is bad in Indonesia, they don't censor them. So, it's more or less like that. This is access to something where, yesterday, Indonesia’s position was really—and many other countries couldn't get in either. That is what I want to tell the Minister, like this. We are Muslims.

Uh-huh. Right? Especially Bugis people like the two of us. That, we, all of us, I don't want to take over the risk of that pain. We are pained seeing the suffering of the people in Gaza. But throughout our lives, we have only seen two camps that seemingly cannot meet. My political subconscious says this: it seems the President is taking an extraordinarily bold position.

It really is out of the box, right, brother? Yes, true. But who knows, maybe this is the way out. Uh-huh. So we here are really, what should I say, careful in taking this position. An extraordinary decision, with an extraordinary level of risk. Some even link it to the election. And, uh, what — 2029 is still a long way off, isn't it?

Yes, but someone has already linked them. Oh, there will be risks later, but I am a witness because when I was in Commission 1, he already talked about steps that were truly unthinkable diplomatically. That's it. Because he combines the science of diplomacy with the science of defense. And survival. So, he has reminded us since back then in Commission 1 that we want a two-state solution, right?

Yeah. So it's quite difficult if we want a two-state solution but don't think about the methods. Just insisting on" two-state, two-state "like that. But then, when we still couldn't get in , brother. So, I told you, brother, that this isn't just because he is president and heading toward 2024, but from the start of his path, he already spoke about that. That's it. So I was just continuing what I said earlier; my political

subconscious tells me that this president seems extraordinary. Taking incredibly huge risks. As politicians, we can see where it's heading, but if we can only demonstrate without offering any exit strategy, how long will the people of Gaza be rained on by bombs? We are angry at Israel, but these are two parties in conflict. There must be a solution, so we here are being very careful in addressing that. Another thing related to this is,

how much is the contribution? 17. 17 trillion, right? There is a narrative developing: why must we pay? What if it fails? And there are statements from the Israeli side that they will never acknowledge, will never recognize Palestine, and all that. Madam Minister, I give the floor to you. Explain to the public regarding that. First, regarding the payment, brother, we haven't paid anything to

date. Uh-huh. So we can't hypothesize about what if we pay and how it will go, because up to this moment, Indonesia's position is that we have not paid. Then, a position that is also important to note is that if anything contradicts our national conscience and the spirit of our founding fathers, we will walk away. And he has already stated that, not only in limited public forums, but

yesterday when meeting with former foreign ministers, he also conveyed that. So. Yes. I think that is our guide; what was it that you mentioned earlier, brother? Israel. Israel, right. Yes. Have you ever done any negotiations, brother? Or have we witnessed negotiations? In Aceh.

This is different. This is not state-to-state, but what do you call it ? How we achieved peace in Aceh. For example, if we listen to the spokespeople from A and the spokespeople from C. It seems like they won't meet at the beginning. But in the end, peace actually happened , brother. Once again, this is in the context of being domestic, not in another country.

If we talk about yesterday, Mr. Hasan Wirayuda also gave examples of many peace efforts outside the UN, such as when we dealt with the Dutch through the KMB, which was also assisted without UN organs. And it's the same, Bang, if we look at the initial narrative before peace occurred, both sides were equally aggressive. That's what happens during negotiations, both sides are tough as if peace will never happen. But in the end, it does. I'm

not saying or guaranteeing here that peace will definitely happen. Yeah. But there is a window of opportunity there. Oh, I... Why don't we try that, Bang? And it feels wrong if Indonesia doesn't try and chooses to stay silent in the current position, which is also difficult to do anything other than condemn, condemn, and condemn, but with no action and unable to get in.

Yeah. Difficult to get in to provide aid. Now at least the doors have been open... have been opened for us. That's what I meant. So... yeah, okay, that concern must be in a tangible form. If it's just condemning, protesting, people are still getting shot over there. Being brave, in my opinion, again I use the word with appreciation but also with criticism. It's better for us to see how it

continues. The Minister just answered it hasn't been paid yet. There are plans B and C being prepared regarding that. Right, Madam Minister? I don't know. Yes. Related to what? Related to... let's say, for example, if it turns out it's not done, there could be options ... like withdrawing, yes, there are several options, so okay, that's what people in social media spaces and the

public want to know: okay, our minister is taking action. The President also often speaks about foreign power intervention in Indonesia . And it always starts with designing narratives and all sorts of things. I... what exactly are our concerns regarding that? Yes, previously he also...I mean, people were questioning it, right, Bang

? Why did the President say there is... intervention, foreign propaganda, like that. It was the same back then in Commission 1, people didn't believe us in the DPR either at that time, saying," Are we really going to war? " Eh, now a war is actually happening. So... it's like that. Yes. Maybe he's a visionary leader. Nine factions at that time initially

questioned what the Minister of Defense said," Are we really going to war? "( except for Gerindra). And it happened. Now, within the framework of foreign propaganda that he often mentions, it's roughly like this, Bang. Now in the digital space, especially in the digital realm, Bang ...in the digital world... everything enters, all kinds of crimes. Propaganda is related to opinion, Bang. Oh, I see.

Information, views, opinions. Exactly. Right. If crimes of all kinds, unrelated to opinions, are piggybacking on technological advancements like social media and digital platforms, wouldn't propagandists also be taking advantage of them? So, I find it naive to say that the internet is free from foreign interference, truly naive. Especially in the form of foreign propaganda. Because, fundamentally,

propaganda is a game of opinion. It would be strange if they weren't involved. It’s strange if people believe there is no foreign propaganda in the digital realm. More or less, that’s it. Why are countries in Europe, and even China, starting to regulate AI now? Because they are worried that the AI they created themselves could become a gateway for foreign powers to enter. Future wars might not necessarily involve shooting,

right? Perhaps through cyber, through digital means, and it's not just a possibility, that is the prediction. Wow. becoming making Akbar Faisal Uncensored important as part of the nation's power narrative. That sounds pleasant. Okay, Madam Minister. Um, I...You may answer or decline my next question because it is,

well, not entirely within the purview of the Ministry. Um, there is something that I sometimes find disheartening when observing how this government runs , how Mr. Prabowo as President acts as the conductor of all the planned programs. Um, where sometimes one ministry's policy doesn't align with another's, especially in how they communicate it. Uh-huh. Sometimes they clash. Um, thinking about this question, I

suddenly remember, um, Mr. what was his name? Harmoko back then. H. Where in Mr. Harto's government, the face of the government was singular, clear. Where this was heading, where that was heading. So, Mr. Harto didn't need to answer many questions or issue exhausting statements. Now, I sometimes see the President tiring himself out dealing with ambushes from various

parties. If we may use the word ambush, where his ministries sometimes don't speak the same language. Does the Ministry um, not feel that this is a part that must be addressed? Oh, you don't need to be hesitant in asking, Abang. Yes. I hope to be very polite here. It's okay. It's okay. Does the Ministry of Communication not feel the need to take an initiative so that things like this don't become unpleasant?

Uh-huh. What is it called? The latest one is um , the uncomfortable exchange between the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries. Uh-huh. Regarding the financing of fishermen's boats. And Mr. Trenggono very sternly said," You seem to have misread the data. " That was aid from the British government.

Um, and it wasn't just two ministers talking harshly to each other, right? But we, the common people, say this: it seems like this ministry is not well, lowering itself. No, not that. So, it's like this, Abang. This is also access from digital digitalization. So, I mean in other countries there are also different ministries. It means it becomes a normal thing.

Uh, if in the past it was perhaps coordinated first before making a statement, meeting first. But with social media, eventually, uh, openly, and in my opinion, that's fine up to a certain point. Then later, of course, there must be consolidation. But as an initial statement, perhaps, well, I don't know, the Cabinet Secretary will assess this, of course, the President, through the

Cabinet Secretary, I mean. But in principle, in my opinion, Bang, regarding the statement in this case, having slightly different views and dynamics is allowed, right, Bang? Dynamics. But in the case of the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Marine Affairs and Fisheries, it becomes risky because that's equivalent to evaluating a ministry's performance. Now, what I mean is this, it's troublesome for the

President if things that don't need his intervention end up requiring the President to intervene as well. This is just a communication issue. I think perhaps in the near future they will meet and, uh, resolve it immediately. Usually it's like that, Bang. Previously, if there were slightly different views, it was more due to, perhaps before meeting, social media was used to convey that in public. Uh, it wouldn't

be fair either if I then just asked for and, what do you call it, demanded accountability, quote-unquote, from the Ministry of Communication and Digital, because this isn't— this is— it's not, what do you call it, not— not a communication problem. Yes, not their job description, but here is what I imagine. Or does it seem like we have to submit, um, a petition to the Constitutional

Court for this? Returning the communication pattern to the Minister of Information, in this case, the Ministry of Communication and Digital. But back then, Bang, when the minister had one face, which was the face of the Ministry of Information, and there was indeed only one TV channel at that time . Yes. Yeah. Now there are many TV stations, there was no Akbar Faisal Uncensored

yet, there's a lot of social media, there wasn't Akbar Faisal Uncensored, like that. So, it's a different era. I don't , uh, demand going back to that, but I totally agree that it must be more coordinated. It doesn't mean the Minister of Communication and Digital has to, uh, always appear, right? But I think, uh, the State Secretary and Cabinet Secretary perform communication

functions because they are with the President day-to-day, so it is easier. Uh, and the Ministry of Communication and Digital then assists with the narrative, not daily issues, but the government's Asta Cita programs which are long-term. But occasionally, if there are issues that must also be answered by the Ministry of Communication and Digital, we answer them too. So, it really becomes a shared domain, Bang, to be mutually

coordinated. So, the input you gave earlier, if it's confusing between the two ministries, then we will try, uh, to convey it so it can be fixed immediately. Because in my opinion, that can be done at least in the area of coordination or unifying the, uh, tone of communication . Because the government has three institutions, if I'm not mistaken, we have TVRI, RRI, and Antara. Yeah. If those three institutions were on the

same page for, um, Delivering dignified and measured information to the public is actually something that can be done, Minister. It is possible, the homework for us is how to shift, uh, more viewers to TVRI rather than to Akbar Faisal's audience. Dead. It means we don't want to dictate the public's choice that come on, uh, what, uh, TV is definitely better, because we are very open, as I said. But what we are fixing is bad

content; please understand that we will issue warnings. Content that, uh, what, is not in accordance with culture or violates the ITE Law, please understand we will issue warnings. But there hasn't been any warning yet, right? Closed down twice. Oh, right. It happened, uh, suddenly we disappeared. Oh, if it was removed, that's not necessarily certain, Bang. That

finally it was returned. Yes. Nesar helped. Uh, who was the minister back then? Uh, our friend, Budi. Okay. Okay. This was the last period, right? Yes. Budi Arie, uh, what was it? Last period, I even uh, chased that up because suddenly we were, you know, shut down twice, like that. But maybe that was a technological accident.

Yes. That was the Minister, Bang. But what was I talking about just now? Right, that's TVRI. But the President also conveyed, uh, in one of the limited meetings we attended, that indeed the roles of, uh, TV, uh, like TVRI must be strengthened because TVRI is supposed to be the anchor. It should be. Uh, this, Bang, what's it called? Their coverage is indeed, their

infrastructure is very good, like a lion that is sleeping. So if it is given strength, and the President wants it to be given strength, then it will be able to be mighty again like, uh, in the previous era. RRI. Uh, then Antara, which, uh, this is cited not only domestically, but many foreign media really do refer to Antara. So if we revitalize this, we improve it, we can,

uh, what, uh, run this with much more impact without disturbing democracy through, uh, podcasts that that is what I meant, Minister. So to the friends at TVRI, RRI, Mas Imam, listen to that. Yeah. That's Mas Imam. Okay. Back then, this was reported to us in Commission 1. Try to listen, Mas Imam. Our friend, the President Director of TVRI. So overall, what is the heaviest

task for you, Minister? The infrastructure or the substance? Wow, Bang, if I may be honest, indeed the oversight of the digital realm is becoming very difficult. Like that, right? Especially with what is about to enter, no, it's not about to enter anymore, it's already at our doorstep, artificial intelligence, not to mention, uh, quantum computing, which they say will accelerate all processes, including creating deepfakes

. So we are, uh, fortunately, but we are not alone, Bang. So many countries, just this morning we also just, uh, what, had a meeting with the AI Minister of Australia, then with Singapore, ASEAN countries, that is with the digital ministers regularly, Bang. Because there isn't a single country that is 100%sure how to regulate this new technology called artificial intelligence. So, we compare notes on how things are done there, how

they're done here, what is prioritized in country A, what the approach is, and what we can adopt for Indonesia. Our challenge is always that we are the largest digital market. Well, it's not just a challenge, it's an advantage but it also becomes a challenge. Because when a hoax or a crime occurs, for instance, it multiplies much faster because our size is 220 million internet users. So, uh, that's it, brother.

Right? That is what I think is more challenging. Yeah, it becomes, you know, not simple, right? Because over time it will erode the good ecosystem. People used to think TV was old-fashioned, podcasts were more trendy, so people would watch podcasts. But when you compare podcasts, the ones with value that do research like you showed earlier.

Yeah. But there are podcasts that have no basis but are catchier. People watch those more. Yes. In the end, what gets eroded are the tens of millions of viewers. Yes. What gets eroded in the end is democracy too, brother. Because that's not democracy. If there are hoaxes and so on, the pillars, the voices of democracy like the press, for one, become hard to hear. They become hard

to hear amidst the barrage you mentioned of things that might be lies, might be propaganda, might incite hatred among others, roughly speaking. I haven't heard of any party in the government—perhaps they talk about it , but in reality, it hasn't appeared yet. Like, facing the power of, you know, all those social media platforms using our own strength. I mean, there are many smart people in Indonesia, right?

There are. We are always just users and then complain when there are impacts; has the Ministry of Communication and Informatics not initiated that yet? We are currently inventorying them one by one, there are many local works, brother. A lot, right? Like recently, for example, we still have Cloudflare under limited block. They don't want to register.

Why? I don't know. Our rule is they must register. Yeah. OpenAI's ChatGPT finally agreed to register. So, one of our tasks recently was to list all the big tech companies that hadn't registered in Indonesia; there was OpenAI with ChatGPT, but they complied. There were several others that immediately complied and registered, but there is one cloud service that still hasn't until now. We

are anticipating this, seeing if there are any local innovations emerging, we are currently filtering them, brother. Including perhaps social media in the future in Europe to replace X, they came up with, if I'm not mistaken, W, right, wanting to create a new one. But the homework later, brother, is moving people who are already highly addicted, who are already happy with the existing platforms right now. I'll take a step forward here. Yeah.

I happen to be around some brilliant young people. Yes. And we are building a platform specifically to help our friends in law enforcement, where the interrogation report process becomes fully AI-driven. That's right, brother. Measurable. It can even, uh, immediately identify what potential articles the person being questioned might have violated, and so on.

That’s already found. Yes. Hopefully, uh, the government or the police, yes. That's why when I was entrusted by the President, we restructured the Ministry of Communication and Informatics into a digital ecosystem to accommodate the work of young people in the country working in startups, AI, and so on. So later you can connect them to us, I really enjoy hearing information like this. Uh, the episode of national

politics, let's leave that for a moment . I'm moving to Golkar. Because, viewers, it happens that the Minister was formerly a member of the House of Representatives from the North Sumatra electoral district and from Golkar. Uh, what is your position in Golkar now? Deputy Chairperson. Deputy Chairperson, yes. There is one political move by Golkar that I think is somewhat risky but brave and smart. at least for Golkar,

uh, what I mean is immediately proclaiming a permanent coalition H facing 2029. So if earlier the Minister said 2029 is still far off, your party has already moved ahead. Oh, no. That permanent coalition isn't just for the election, brother. It’s also to oversee the government. Right? It leads there too. It's hard when talking it leads there too.

If it’s about reporters, I’m ahead, but if it’s about politicians, you’re ahead. So yes. Yes, uh, what do you call it? What was Golkar's calculation in doing that? So at that time, the Chairman also spoke, what was the wording, essentially, if you support, then support; if not, then don't. So it means a party must show its colors, Ma'am. Appear clear, be a gentleman.

Coalition or not, don't be vague about it. This, uh, the big message is that, and I really don't know, brother. Maybe because I'm a person from the village, like you, brother. I truly support my Chairman's statement. Not just because he is my Chairman, but I mean it really should be a clear stance. We seem to be past the era where politics is always gray. Why? Because if we look at geopolitics, nothing is gray anymore. Now

America is visible, its opponents are visible, and Europe, when angry with America, is also visible. Now, in Indonesia, can we still adopt a politics that has no clear color? In my opinion, it really should be like that, Minister. It's just that it's still at a comma. Ideally, uh, a coalition shouldn't be about people, H but about ideology. Isn't that what

these books, there are many political books here, say? So if, for example, Gerindra and Golkar are relatively on the same frequency ideologically, like nationalists, right? Yes. The problem arises when parties that are ideologically different suddenly declare a permanent coalition. Well, there must be an ulterior motive if it's like that. See, I am not blaming Golkar, and it should be like that. What the Minister said

earlier was a comma. Now perhaps, well this is a good start. What do you mean by a period, brother? A period means okay, not just until 2024 but beyond, because we are on the same nationalist frequency. That’s what we want, right? Yes. Currently, if I'm not mistaken, responding to the chairman's statement —well, I shouldn't be wrong because I work for the chairman— it really is a permanent coalition in

terms of overseeing government programs until 2024, brother. Is that so? Yes. So, while ideology is important, policy programs must indeed be managed together—how we organize not just programs but, yes, you're right, also talking about what political parties will look like in the future, what a good future election system looks like, that really needs to be designed from now, and I think

different ideologies can still agree on those points. Actually, I but it serves as input for us too. Yes. I actually prepared a question, but not for Golkar. He at the same time, I want to invite the chairmen of PAN and PKB who support but only for the president. The vice president is not yet, but this is not for Golkar. I’m withdrawing that question for the

Minister. Minister, thank you for being here openly to the public to explain to us, because many don't understand why it has come to this, why the Ministry is like this. So I hope well, that means it's our shortcoming too, brother. If not many understand, it means we haven't been active enough and haven't come to this podcast for a long time. So it means we need to speak more.

How many have you... this is just, for me, during the first year, the President really tasked me with ensuring online gambling must truly go down. So for one year, I didn't go to any podcasts at all. Is that so? Yes. Brother, you were supposed to be the first, but because we rescheduled, this is only the second. Whatever it is called, I look, as a citizen, I trust my leaders,

and if something is wrong, I will criticize it. But when there is a willingness to share information, it means there is good thought and intent from the government towards us. On that part, I hold on to Minister. Thank you. Thank you for the inputs, brother. Yes. Viewers, that was my conversation and discussion with the Minister. There is still much that needs to be explained. That is how this nation

should move forward. Before we end, as usual, we received several books from our audience, and we promise to help our literacy grow, so we accept many books. This is a book written by staff from the Vice President's office, the President's office. Uh, this is Prabowo as he truly is. The book is already in circulation. Then there is the Criminal Code that was just passed. We were sent this as well. Thank you, Mr. Minister, Mr. Maman, uh, Supratman and Actes.

Then this one from Mr. Wiro, an old book sent back to us, it is our duty to announce it. A friend, uh, Nasli Sregar , just sent this letter, uh, this book as well, the last letters. Congratulations to you, Mr. Nasli. Then this book is also interesting. Why it is important to know Habib Ba'awi is not a descendant of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. So, for those who get offended by this, don't be. I am just receiving the book.

It’s very diverse, Bang. The books that come in are diverse. Yes. Uh, in my opinion, this is a step toward a civilization based on knowledge. So we just accept them, as for the substance, feel free to argue about it yourselves out there. Then this is also a book written by Brother Eksan," Prabowo Subianto, The General Who Conquered History, "uh, Presidential. Uh, it’s good, uh, what do you call it, the arguments. I think

there is no bad book unless we choose to ignore it from the start. And there is a special book, there is my book, there is the Minister's book written by our friend. Written by Fenti, who now prefers to reside in Pekanbaru. Fen, thank you for the book. Uh, this book, uh, is actually a book very close to the Minister's heart, telling the story of her daughter. A daughter longed for for

decades. I know her. Congratulations to Fajri, yes. Congratulations to you both . You have, uh, given birth, and this is the book about the Minister's daughter. Was the film made too? Yes. Already. How moving it was when Right? Yes, yes, Adinda. Yes. God, how much I love you with Quite a lot, the viewers are nearly 200,000, they say.

Don't cry, I’m getting moved too. Because, Brother, you know the wait was really long. True, very. I know it very well. Because I know the family, I know her mother, I know her father back in the village in Soppeng. This book, uh, for her, Adinda, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you, Bang. Yes, thank you, viewers. We must build this nation's civilization. One way is by having conversations. Let us

converse with one another. Thank you.