FERDINAND HUTAHAEAN: JOKOWI HARUS SEGERA MERESHUFFLE 5 MENTERI INI! | AF UNCENSORED

Have you been offered or have you become a commissioner? I've been offered and I turned it down. Oh. Oh, yes. Here's the proof. The reason is that BWMN is small. Oh, not that BUMN is small. Even my salary is stated in the contract. Sometimes it's difficult to be in a position to convey or disseminate or mediate information for the public. I've tried to be in the middle, but

sometimes I'm considered too left or too right. That's the risk. Including me. Um, some people think I give too much space to this group. But there are also sometimes people who think I give too much space to this group. That's the risk I have to face. But that's how it is. At least Akbar Faizal Sensor is preparing itself or becoming a forum for everyone to speak. Whoever they are , wherever they are from, whatever their background. That's one of the

goals of Akbar Faiz Alonsensor, which I created and we created here with our friends. Because the narrative that shines among us will ultimately make us move forward one step, two steps, three steps. Including tonight, I invited someone who many say is Mr. Jokowi's heartthrob. A phase that I understand, I recognize, uh, a phase that differs from his appearance long before, but that was his life choice. Ferdinandai. How about it, Bro? Ready, Bro.

Greetings. Tonight isn't our first agenda, okay? Yes, that's okay. That's the democratic space, we have to accept it as democracy. Yes. So uh actually, this forum, at this moment in this discussion, is presenting another friend to address an issue that is developing outside. But it turns out our friend, our best friend chose not to pursue it. But yes, I have to respect Ferdinandan, we have

to respect him. That's how we should be — we're not that young, but that's how we should play ourselves in the public sphere. Yes. But uh, I feel that I still have to talk to Fed and Utah HN. Uh, who were you before? Why are you suddenly in the public sphere so constantly? Yes. My history is indeed long, if I could say it's long, maybe not. But at

least I've lived a life of opposition to the government, as an opposition figure, so to speak, and also as a government supporter. I entered politics when Mr. Jokowi first arrived from Solo to Jakarta, initially driving a vocational high school car. We met at the proclamation ceremony. Then, until Mr. Jokowi ran for president, I supported him until he won the 2014 presidential election. I was the one who stood beside him when we saw him

off after the swearing-in ceremony at the MPR building. I still escorted him, right next to him, as he rode, what, horse, saddle, yes, to the palace. After that, the 2014 term. Well, that was my first foray into politics, after previously being active in various political activities as an activist. Maybe I'm exaggerating if I call it an activist, but I'm sorry if I mention the activities I've done, like

Mr. Bursa, Mr. Saganda, Mr. Jumhur, Mr. Taufikorman Ruki, and Mr. Rizal Ramli. During the Jakarta gubernatorial election, I even founded something called Rumah Amanah Rakyat. At that time, the People's Trust House in Cunyadin wasn't a political party yet, not yet a political party, but still an activist. Well, that was the journey. And then in 2015, I chose to leave Mr. Jokowi because of differing visions at

that time, especially regarding the elimination of fuel subsidies and the planned transfer of fuel subsidies. That was my main difference, because what? I was also active in the energy world. I also founded something called Energy Watch Indonesia. Yes. I did, yes, yes. I. So, I heard that, I was active there, and when Mr. Jokowi wanted to eliminate fuel subsidies, I refused. And at that time, I finally

agreed, but not to use it all for the things mentioned, yes, one of which was the construction of the Sumatra toll road. At that time, I requested that if possible, not toll roads be built, but railways imitate Java, which already had railways from one end to the other. Because I thought that would be better. But in Java, it imitated Java in Sumatra. For Sumatra. But because the plan was already a toll road, I didn't agree

with that. That's why in 2015 I left supporting Mr. Jokowi and returned to my activities as an activist, opposing Mr. Jokowi's policies at the time, especially in the energy sector. Well, that's the origin of my presence in national politics until finally, ee 2019 ee before 2019, I joined the Democratic Party with Mr. SBY. I accompanied him for three years. Uh, we've been through quite a lot in Indonesia and supported Mr. Prabowo in

2019. But politics then changed, why? Uh, I was very close to the late Mrs. Hani at that time. I'm not claiming it, but that's the reality. And when many of Mr. Prabowo's supporters were disappointed with ee political stance, maybe the political stance of the Democratic Party or Mr. SB at that time was considered not fully supportive. Because indeed, during the campaign at Gelora Bung Karno, Mr. SBY issued criticism for being too overtly

identity politics. Well, finally, when the late Mrs. Hani was sick in Singapore, many attacked her. I personally couldn't accept this and ultimately announced my resignation from Mr. Prabowo's campaign team. Although the presidential election was over, no decision had been made. I announced my resignation at that time, and...[I'm referring to the phrase " Why did you resign from Mr. Prabowo's team?"]

Well, because many of Mr. Prabowo's supporters were very vocal at the time. I wouldn't call it criticism, but it had escalated into hatred, particularly against the late Mrs. Ani. Some said she was pretending to be ill so she wouldn't support Mr. Prabowo, and so on . And I couldn't accept that because I was very close to the deceased, and that was the main reason I resigned from the campaign team. I felt this was getting out of control and was getting

wilder. So, I decided to resign from Mr. Prabowo's campaign team and reassess the current situation in the country, where issues of nationalism and radicalism were becoming increasingly stronger. I felt I had to help the government. So, when I announced my resignation from the Democratic Party at that time, my reason was that I no longer aligned with the political party's ideas. Especially recently, regarding the Job

Creation Law. The Job Creation Law was strongly opposed by the Democratic Party. Personally, I see it as a good law. Although it won't please everyone, my overall view of this law is that it will be a kind of ticket for us to simplify many things. So, I finally decided to resign from the Democratic Party and declare my support for the government, not for Mr. Jokowi, but for the government, which is President Jokowi, as both head of government and

head of state. So, if I were called a die-hard of Mr. Jokowi, perhaps not. But if I were called a diehard of the Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia and Pancasila, then I had to declare myself there. Something like that, Sir. Yes. Why did you leave the Democratic Party so simply? Because what we read at the time was that you were given space, trusted to speak on behalf of the Democratic Party. That's

right. People call you a spokesperson. But in some narratives I've heard, you were given access to information to convey to the public from the Democratic Party elite, but then, why did you resign? It was like a roller coaster ride. So, here it is, Mr. Akbar. Indeed, many internal events had occurred previously , especially since the change of leadership in the Democratic Party from Mr. SBY to Mr. AHY. During Mr. SBY's

time, I was one of several people, a small team, who always accompanied Mr. SB and was always invited to discuss all issues developing in this country. Mr. SB always invited us to discuss our opinions and convey them to him before taking a stance. And because I was in that role, and I happen to be, not to boast about my ability to verbally convey the language that must be conveyed well and measuredly, I was

often appointed to convey the Democratic Party's stance during the SB era. Well, then, uh, things changed during the AHY era. Well, we don't see this anymore; things like this have never happened again. So, I think there's actually a full-blown decline in democratic values internally. Because what I've noticed is a change from the democratic system that Mr. SBY once established. We were invited to talk, invited to discuss, asked for our

opinions. It's become a command system, a command system, a command system from above. Maybe Mas Ahaye still has his military roots. I don't really know, but that's what happened, and I saw that I no longer found the democratic spaces I found during the SBY era. That's the first. Second, at that time, I was indeed someone who strongly opposed the narratives developed by mass organizations like HTI and FPI. I admit I was indeed tough in confronting

them. Well, internally, many criticized me at that time. I was called anti-Islam and all sorts of things. Yes , I just smiled because in my extended family, there are many Muslims and Christians. Some converted from Islam to Christianity, some Christians converted to Islam. In our extended family, there were never any problems. So what I opposed wasn't Islam, but the vision espoused by FPI and HTI. That's what I opposed. And then it turned out

that the government disbanded them, and I supported them, and there I was labeled anti-Islam by some of my friends. Second. Third, there were differences in political views. For me, the Democratic Party is stigmatized in the public as a nationalist party. But I saw its swing increasingly leaning toward the right. And this made me think even more that this wasn't the home I believed in anymore. My understanding of nationality. And at

one point, Mr. Aulia Bohan also sent me a WhatsApp message with roughly the same meaning. He accused me of being a trap for other friends, and that reinforced the idea that, uh, for me, this was no longer my home. What is the right wing? You said that earlier, and then what about the right wing? Uh, I'm someone who rejects the use of identity politics in politics. For me, democracy doesn't recognize identity, doesn't recognize ethnicity, doesn't

recognize religion, doesn't recognize race. But what's discussed in democracy are the values of freedom of opinion and freedom of speech. That's what I understand. But when this right wing increasingly uses religious issues to achieve political goals, well, that's unacceptable to me because we should use these religious issues in their own space, about humans and their God. I've never, or I think I need to read more and analyze again,

since when has the Democratic Party been playing, uh, what is that identity that we mentioned earlier, what you called the right wing? It doesn't seem right. I haven't been involved in this game for long, but there are some cadres who are quite synonymous with this game. Well, I don't need to name anyone, but they are the ones who attacked me internally , accusing me of being anti-Islam when I was tough on the FPI and HTI. So,

there is a group of people, but the party hasn't gone that far yet. But what I see is that with these people, it's increasingly leaning and being carried in that direction. But politically, the party hasn't gone that way yet. But more and more of its people are playing that way. And that's the group that attacked me. And at that time, before I resigned from the Democratic Party, I had a private conversation with Mr. SBY, and I told

him how I felt at the time. And he kept asking me to stay. I tried to stay, but the longer I felt, the more I saw that I was becoming like an enemy under wraps. And that made me uncomfortable rather than being considered an enemy under wraps. Yes, I had to choose a political option that was comfortable for me. I had to leave on good terms, and I left the Democratic Party. I'm a bit unsure what to ask, Bro. Hmm.

You said earlier that during Mr. SBY's era, people were more democratic in their conversations and even received authority to do things. Didn't that also happen during AHY's era? Moreover, AHY is both in the military and his father. Yes, right? Even though they have different ranks, AHY's education is Harvard, Bro. Oh yes. Secondly, he's a young man and

should be more open. Aren't you overestimating him? Uh, I'll convey my feelings. Okay. Even if my assessment is overestimating , that's how I felt during Mr. AHY's leadership. At that time, I was appointed, or placed, as Head of the Energy and Mineral Resources Bureau. And I respect that, I accept that. But my presence, if I say that our existence would be impossible, I have to talk about myself. My presence there

. Regarding several things, I made several recommendations, recommendations to the higher-ups regarding the Morowali issue at that time, regarding the Chinese foreign workers, Chinese foreign workers. I also have experience working in the energy sector . I've been abroad for several years, uh, even regarding energy. So I fully understand why we need this Chinese technology.

Why do we need this foreign technology? Because we don't have the technology. So when installing something like a turbine or other equipment, automation, and all sorts of things in a large industry like that, whether it's a power plant or a smelter, we don't have the technology. They have it, so they have to come in and install it. I don't know whether all those workers are experts in that field or not. But regarding our need for foreign

technology, I myself, from around 2005 onward, until 2011, was still active in that sector. So I fully understand that when we used to import goods from foreign manufacturers like Germany, China, or Sweden, we had to go there. We had to visit the factory first. We were sent by the company there. After that, they came with their experts, they installed it, and we followed what they did. Well, that's what I saw, and that's when I made recommendations to

higher education institutions regarding these foreign workers issues. I conveyed this based on my experience as well. But regarding the amount needed, I don't really understand because I've never been to Morowali to check whether that much is really needed. But when it comes to the need, we do need it because we don't have the technology. Well, at that time, I made recommendations regarding this several times, and it turned out there was no

response or opinion from Mr. AHY, because he also commented on this differently from what I said. And at that time, the media, my friends in the media, also asked me about the same issue, and I answered with what I understood. Well, when this difference of opinion was in the media, I received a call from a Deputy Secretary General who was part of Mr. AHY's inner circle, reprimanding me about it. Yes, reprimanding me about it so I didn't

have to speak. Okay, I still complied at the time, but I considered my presence there useless. Why would I be in a big house if I was useless and unproductive when I felt I had potential that I could develop wherever I was. Well, that's also why I chose to leave there. So, regarding the issue of democracy that you asked earlier, isn't it excessive? Yes, I don't think it's excessive. But I feel like there's no longer the democracy that it should be.

Well, like the opinion we sent to the General Chair regarding the recommendation, if there is democracy, we should be asked what it means? Is it really like this, what's the basis for it, and so on. But there was no opinion . Our opinion was ignored, and what was conveyed differed from what we recommended at the time. The Chair, the head of my department, was a member of the House of Representatives (DPR), I've forgotten his name from the

Sulawesi election. Uh, I also asked, " Bro, why is this different?" Because the recommendation we gave was based on a meeting from our department, but what was conveyed was different. So, I thought, oh, there's no more democracy, but everything has become the right of the authorities above. So, yes, I feel there's no point here. There is a point. Yes. You were once a spokesperson. Yes, actually, I never officially had a decree as spokesperson

, but I was always asked to convey the party's opinions and stance. That's why I wanted to ask for your assessment , since I'm no longer in the Democrats, right? Right. Hey, what do you think about the character or quality of public information from the Democratic Party today? Honestly, I've personally spoken with one of the elites in Mas Ahai's circle and also conveyed this. The

first thing I said at that time was related to the narrative of friends who I thought were too extreme, too extreme in highlighting something. The first thing I said to him at that time was, I don't need to mention it, but one of the people there. Please, please, don't bring Mr. SBY's name into the politics of the grassroots. It's a shame that Mr. SBY is being attacked on social media because our social media is now incredibly sadistic, a killing field in

my opinion. Whoever does this is all slaughtered there. I've been slaughtered often. But if I've trained myself not to respond to things like that, I just keep quiet and, fortunately, Twitter has a mute feature . I just mute it. Well, that's the first thing I said because I see it's a shame that Mr. SB has to be the victim of social media attacks. The issues below shouldn't have to involve Mr. SB's name. I said that Mr. SB should be

raised as a national issue, a national issue, and above all, as a national teacher. That's my first point. Second, my friends 'narratives need to be corrected because they too often make extreme blunders and speak in ways that , if I may say, are outside political ethics, perhaps. That's my assessment. Recently, something happened with Mr. Herzaki, who is now the spokesperson for Bakomstra (Party Strategic Communications Agency), whose blunder,

in my opinion, was extremely over-the-top when he constructed a narrative accusing Mrs. Megawati of overthrowing Mr. Gus Dur. For me, that's a narrative that crosses the line, violating political ethics. Therefore, it requires proof. There's no conclusion that states whether the PDI-P, let alone implicitly accusing Mrs. Megawati of overthrowing him. Yes, Mrs. Megawati accepted the MPR's decision to dismiss the late Gus Dur as

president, even though the PDI-P faction was present at the time. Yes, but what was mentioned was Mrs. Megawati's personal opinion. For me, this crosses the line, it's inappropriate and shouldn't be. So, over the past two days, many media friends have asked me for my opinion. I said that Mr. Rejaki had gone too far in his politically unethical speech, and that it wasn't enough for him to apologize, as

he already did. Yes, I read that Harzaki has apologized . But I think the level of this mistake must be atoned for with a direct apology from the Democratic Party Chairman, Mas Ahaye. Because we must also understand the level of the person being attacked. Mrs. Megawati also served as president of the Republic of Indonesia. She is the current chairman of a major party that won and is still in power. I think the apology must be

equal, balanced, and equal. Because when she delivered it, Herzaki represented the Democratic Party, not herself. Because the press conference was a Democratic Party press conference , and she was the spokesperson for the Democratic Party. This means that the opinions she conveyed were the party's stance. So, when the mistake that Mr. Harzaki referred to earlier occurred, what was it? A slip of the tongue, if I'm not mistaken, I think it must be

atoned for with a direct apology from the Democratic Party Chairman. So when my media friends asked me for my opinion, I said, "Oh, it's Herzaki who should apologize. No matter what, we have to respect Mrs. Megawati. Even though the Democratic Party and the Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDIP) have always been rivals in the political arena and many other things, we must still uphold political ethics. That's my opinion.

That's great, bro. Yes. But still, many people were surprised, including Ferdinand. Yes. Ready. When you left the Democrats, your narrative changed. Yes. From being very, what do you call it? No longer critical. Two levels above, critical of Jokowi. That was already scary. Then suddenly becoming a supporter. Uh,

it's good that West Java said that, but I'm not a supporter of Mr. Jokowi personally, but a supporter of Niaus, but people were still surprised. What's going on that makes people say there's a conflict, Ferdinand? Yes, that's what I understand, that the country is indeed facing ideological issues. The ideology I mentioned earlier relates to issues of radicalism , which we must acknowledge continues

to grow and develop. And when Mr. Prabowo, or Mr. Jokowi, as President, disbanded the FPI and HTI, I saw this as a middle ground, not yet the peak of the war against these radicalism issues . And indeed, I am an admirer and practitioner of Pancasila. That's right . Yes, this is my claim. I don't know how my friends will judge me. But I feel that Pancasila is non-negotiable. It is an ideology that must be defended . Because we can compare it to many

other countries where even one race is at odds. We, with all these differences , can unite because of Pancasila. And when someone tries to disrupt Pancasila , it bothers me, so I stand there. That's the main reason I support the government. Because I see these political differences and this political division between the government and those who use identity politics to disrupt Pancasila, and the government that wants to defend it. And

I have to choose my position; I have to be in a position alongside the government that truly upholds Pancasila . That's my decision. But there are also those who say that, uh, in some parts, perhaps your presence is" in quotation marks, "yes, alongside or alongside the government to voice things that haven't been voiced or perhaps not voiced enough by the government itself through various appropriate mechanisms.

Yes. That's actually detrimental to the government itself because your narrative is too harsh, even regarding identity. Yes. Uh, what do you call it? Some say no, it's better to keep quiet because they say you don't understand Islam anyway. If you talk about Islam, you don't understand Islam. Then there are those who say that it actually backfires on

the government. Yes, that's what I said earlier. So many people interpret that as me talking about Islam. In fact, I'm not talking about Islam at all. In fact, I often present Islamic narratives. Every Friday, my Twitter feed displays me looking for photos of beautiful mosques and I wish my friends a happy Friday prayer. I'm not talking about Islam, I'm talking about radicalism and extremism, wrapped in those religious

narratives. Because that's what I'm fighting against. So it's not Islam. I love Islam very much. There's no negotiating about that. I've never had any hatred towards Islam at all. I love Islam. I'm friends. I've said in my extended family about Islam, Muslims, we all blend in. In North Sumatra, the clan is Tahan. Yes, that's right. Where in North Sumatra is it? In North Sumatra, the name of my village is the

Boti song from Lake Toba, about 30 minutes away. Not far, maybe from the Dell Institute built by Mr. Nuhud. So my village is not far from there. About 15 minutes away, we're mostly farmers there. There are some parts, you know, I'm also, what's the name, part of my party . Prepare yourself, at least five years ago, many said Ferdinand defended us, but it

actually backfired on us. Yes. Especially in some parts of the narrative, right? Heeh. Were you hurt when you were told that? Yes, that's what I said earlier, especially when it's like on social media, it's not just arguments, but insults, insults, and all sorts of things. For me, that's enough. So if I only respond to those who argue my argument, I

respond. But if the narrative is already direct, insults, insults, I just ignore it. When it comes to hurt feelings, at first, we're bound to be hurt because, yes, many untrue things are made to seem true, resulting in all sorts of slander. But I have to learn to be someone who is immune to that. And if anyone feels my opinion is wrong , let's debate my argument. I want to ask your harshest criticism of political parties. I see these

political parties now failing to produce politicians who are truly statesmen. Our political parties have now become what kind of institutions or agencies that people join because they want to get rich. That's what I see. So , almost all political parties now fail to produce statesmen. If we go back to the past, many politicians became statesmen. But let's look at it now, let's be fair. My fellow politicians don't need to be offended by my opinion

. But this, to me, is a reality. We're having a hard time finding statesmen now. Why? There are ambitions outside the ideals of democracy. And these goals outside democracy are the primary goals of democracies. Democracies should produce statesmen. We think about the concept of nationhood, the concept of the state, not about ourselves, our families, and our groups . Well, this is what's happening now. That's what I see and what I criticize

political parties for. They produce, become statesman factories. Speaking of the House of Representatives (DPR), yes. What's your harshest criticism of the DPR? My criticism of the DPR is actually the same as that of political parties. Why? The DPR implements party policy. And most of my colleagues in the DPR, if we look at the narrative, their arguments

are often published on social media or media meetings, in the DPR chamber, the hearing room, the hearing room with the government. There were some angry people there, but after it was over, there was no follow-up. After that, we all smiled and sipped coffee together with the government. Well, that's what I criticized my friends in the House of Representatives (DPR). If we really want to build the nation, especially if we are, the DPR's current performance,

based on the National Legislation Program (Prolegnas), is far from this target. What are you guys doing there? What are you doing? So, if I'm criticizing your friends in the DPR, try to go back to what the DPR actually is? What was it created for? Let's go back to that. What did I end up having to play? It's not a guessing game, okay ? Because Ferdinand often appears in the public space called Twitter, especially Twitter.

I see that you often use that platform. Now let's talk about the cabinet. Ah, in your opinion, the cabinet that Mr. Jokowi needs most is its performance, along with the performance of his ministers. What do you think? Because we can't be supporters of the government, right? F, you often criticize, right? But I rarely hear you criticize ministers or ministries, who are actually directly responsible to the president,

and the president's image in the public sphere is reflected in their performance. Right. I want to know now. Yes. Actually, several times, media friends have asked me about that, and I also answered that there are several ministers who I think should be evaluated by Mr. Jokowi in several online media outlets. My opinion is already there. Especially in the global

group, I said I submitted a proposal to Mr. Jokowi to conduct a reshuffle and evaluation of ministers who work more politically for him. towards 2024. That's the first thing in general. But speaking personally, I even proposed several names, like Bang Erik Tohir, I also said that this should be evaluated because I see them too busy with political image building. Meanwhile, our BUMN, right? Second, Mas Teten, Masduki.

Teten Mas Duki. I knew this friend before as someone with a fighter spirit. But after becoming minister, I haven't heard anything about what the Ministry of MSMEs is doing. Okay. Even more so now, the Minister of Economy, Tourism, and Creative Economy, Mr. Sandiuno, is talking about MSMEs. Well, this actually needs to be evaluated. Third, regarding the land

mafia. I also think Mr. Sofyan Jalil needs to be evaluated because this land mafia will never be resolved because the mafia is actually internal. It's internal. The external mafia can exist because there is cooperation with the internal. So, there must be a work culture that can reform character and nature. That's the third point. I also mentioned Air Langga Hararto because I saw he was busy campaigning for himself. Meanwhile

, we are facing a difficult situation. The president needs assistants who work hard for the country, not for his personal politics. And there are still several names, just four. It's only four, but there are still several other names that I have proposed to replace. But I don't need to mention them all here. If I want to add more, I have to speak. If Akbar challenged me to improve, I also conveyed that Pratikno should also be evaluated

because this secretariat is the guard and filter for the president. Meanwhile , the president has made several blunders, such as the BPANG issue, which shouldn't have happened. The secretariat should be a filter there. Yes, that, and there are several other ministries whose performance I see must be improved and evaluated. I said yesterday that there are around 8 to 9 ministries that need to be evaluated. It's

natural for the president's supporters to think about getting involved in government management in various fields . Un. Yes. Especially the state-owned enterprises (BUMN). Yes. That's a field. That's right. Have you been offered or have you been a commissioner? I've

been offered and I've turned it down. Oh. Oh yes. Here's the proof: Who was the commissioner? Ah, I don't need to mention it. It'll be crowded. But what is clear is that I've been offered a position at a state-owned enterprise. Well, I don't know if I wanted to be a commissioner or a special staff member or what. But here's the proof. I refused for what reason?

Because the state-owned enterprise is small. Oh, it's not a small state-owned enterprise. Even my salary was mentioned in the contract. Oh, if you look at the salary, two months could buy a car. And that's about it. But I have to get back to myself. Okay. I have to be a free person. Yes. I have to be free to convey something to this

nation. Why? If I'm already there, I'm bound, confined. I can't do anything anymore. That's it. I prefer this freedom. I move here, I move there, I do many things. What's the business now, Fer? Well, if you call it a business, maybe not, but I also just founded the ee Keadilan Masyarakat Mandiri Foundation. Here we have several fields. There's legal aid advocacy, there's social activities, there's education, and there's

environmental work. I organized this. We're located in an area in Central Jakarta near Cempaka Puti, where our office is. And this is what I'm organizing now. We've carried out many activities, even though we haven't yet achieved our desired targets. But we continue to move, especially given the difficulties our country is facing. It's not easy for us because everything we do requires funding. So, it's certainly not easy to secure funding

sources. But that's what we do, and we advocate extensively for the communities at the grassroots who are victims of land mafias. This is what we're working on. But it's very difficult. But we continue to fight to help them voluntarily and sincerely. I heard you were invited to an official meeting at a ministry. Is that true? Oh dear. Yes, that's what I said earlier. There are many friends out there who say what I'm doing is just a

lame duck. Hopefully, commissioners, these slaves, I've already said I've turned down several positions, and the most recent offer was just about two weeks ago, and I also turned down the last offer. I said," All the evidence is here, and I'll keep it safe , but I don't need to reveal who I am to people whose narratives are based on personal dislike of me. Why should I explain? They'll also say, for example, if I answer like this, "Wow, that's

just a lie, just admit it." Of course they will. Why should I waste time arguing verbally with things like that? So it's better if I keep quiet. When the time comes for me to prove myself, I will prove who I am, but not in a forum like that. Before I give a closing question, what is your response to Mr. Luhud's ministry's performance? I see it this way. First, it's impossible for someone who hasn't

achieved anything to be given a larger workload. Hmm. Yes, that's the first thing. For me, Mr. Luhud is a hard worker, his military spirit is still there, and that's why Mr. Jokowi trusted him to do several things. Most recently, he was reappointed to lead the proudly Indonesian-made movement. Yes, I see it that way, and I think much of what Mr. Luhud has done goes beyond his normal duties. But why did the President give

him such a large workload? Well, because he's capable. He's capable. Regardless of people's opinions. Many also say AB CD, ee, or ee, the real president and all sorts of things. I've had several discussions and listened to his advice on how difficult it is to manage everything, most recently leading the PPKM (Community Activity Restrictions) in Java and Bali. He's been very dedicated. I even once told him to be careful with his health

because I see how extraordinary he is. So, are you close to Mr. L? If you call him close, maybe not. But we often communicate, asking about things, what's happening, and all sorts of things. But if you say close, there are still many people who are closer to him. Bro Ferdinand. Yes. In your opinion, Mr. Jokowi, is it appropriate for some parties to propose an additional term or even an amendment

to a third term? Well, like this, when it comes to being appropriate, we have to sort out the question of whether it violates democratic principles or is it appropriate. Speaking of appropriate, this is a personal matter. From a personal perspective, if I look at Mr. Jokowi's performance, ee, many things have been built, although this is balanced by investment, and we continue to seek debt for development. But in my

opinion, as long as the debt is productive, it's fine with me. But if the debt becomes unproductive, it will become a burden. That's the first thing , if we're talking about his personality. But if we're talking about democracy in our country, where there's a constitution and laws that have created laws that limit the president's term of office, I suggest everyone go back to that. Go back to that. And if it's a matter of extension, I see it as

a matter of looking at the situation. For example, if the national or global situation causes something beyond our predictions, like this, or what, like if Covid again damages all global instruments. Could we possibly hold elections? It's impossible, whether we like it or not, he has to be extended. That depends on the conditions. But if we're talking about democratic principles, I think Mr. Jokowi was right to say no, and he and I have both

stated our unwillingness, and I support that. I also said, "Yes, Mr. Jokowi, under normal national conditions, two terms are enough; please support those who can continue his programs." But if we're talking about his personality, I think he has the capacity to continue leading. But if we're talking about democracy, that's enough. Ferdinand. Hey, I mentioned to Bro Ferdinand earlier that there are many tweets, the language I personally find

inappropriate, but I still invited him. At least let's show the public that differences don't need to be exaggerated. There's a time and space where we need to listen to each other. While he was speaking, I didn't just let him. I asked what the public deserves and what they should listen to . Many people also ask, who is actually responsible for the action? That's how it is. I'm digging deeper today. That's him. In some areas

, Mr. Ferdinand does his job equally well. But in some areas, it depends on our respective perspectives. He might not be the right fit for that. That's how this country develops, that's how this country matures. We must be ready to listen to each other. As long as it doesn't touch on prohibited areas. When I talked about the law, I think we should strive to stay sane. Listening to others, including Ferdinand, is part of my way of staying sane. Likewise, I

think Finan, thank you. Thank you for being here. This is a space I always say is a space for listening to all parties. Thank you, Bro. I'm the one who thanks you. It's amazing that this forum has been given to me to share who I am. Yes, who I am. That's about it, and I still

want to continue learning from my seniors about life, so that I can graduate wiser and wiser. That's amazing. Okay, that concludes our program. We'll meet again at other moments and episodes and other themes. Good evening. Yeah.